George Bryce speaks his mind on the Pro Stock Bike Situation

[sdwarf36]

To get back on track--
I doubt its 50 hp-25 or 30 maybe. HD's always had the best back half-they just now have a decent 60ft to go with the package. (picture this "green towel" moment-what if all this sudden burst of performance has to do with clutch rather than HP )
It seems that the Buell +Suzuki are pretty even at the moment-lets leave them alone. There is 20 years into the 2 valve head for the Suzuki. A 4 valve head would be nice-but it would cost those teams a bundle. (And the money ends up back to V+H who build most? all? of them.)
I seem to remember that the Buells dont have a lot of weight to lose.
I say knock off 15 cu in. of the HD's. Napkin math says probably a bit over 2 hp per cube. There used to be 2 different displacements for 2 to 4 valve-preceded has been set.
I dont want them too far behind the 8 ball- I want 3 makes having an equal chance. Give them plenty of time to test + have a working combo by mid season.

 

[Dave]

Okay so.. looking back just one year... 7 winners in 16 total races, 4 different winners in the 6 chase races... sounds pretty damn competitive to me? Hector Arana left Gainesville with a 6.777 world record at the time. Were we ready to penalize the Suzuki class or just throw in the towel for the year? Holy crap there have been 4 qualifying passes and 4 elimination rounds so far in a LOOONGGG season and these guys are calling it quits? Might I add, yes if it is expected for the HD pair to make the finals every week, then don't red-light in the first round and just give it away. You make the semis against them, then you don't fall too far behind and have the chance to pounce if they make a mistake. Get out run or red-light in the early rounds a few races in a row and no, you are NOT going to make the points back. That's the nature of the game in EVERY class. Give Mike Edwards or the KB cars a few races where they make the final and you're out first round and kiss that title goodbye.

Racing at a disadvantage because of the rules does suck, I do agree with that 100%. The flip side is... nobody is making you compete.

How many titles did Force win in a row? Tony Schumacher? How about Bob Glidden/Lee Sheperd/Warren Johnson/KB Racing in pro stock? Did everyone just pack it up and call it a day? Hell no. You go out there, cut a light, hope you leave first, and run your best number. Did they have an unfair advantage? There have always been grumblings of Alan Johnson running his own super secret stuff and NHRA looking the other way, or John Force running traction control in the 90's or throwing all his team races in his favor. It may or may not be apples to oranges but wow. What an amazing thing to see play out in the bike class. I think it's VERY unfair to pull sponsorship, considering LE won quite a few races last year against the screamin' chickens. By the way, just for the sake of argument I would LOVE to see EVERYONE get their hands on one of those Harleys and Harley engines and STILL get their ass handed to them by the V&H group. Maybe then they would respect what they're able to accomplish. Didn't LE win the championship a few years ago too?

Where's that guy writing the stat book... does your book include PSM? How about some numbers to back up all these "fact" spewing folks. Oh yeah you say since mid 2011 its unbalanced.. Have you checked the 2011 race winners list? The HD bikes won 3 of the last 11 races of the season. How is that tilted in their favor? You do understand that means they LOST 8 races of 11 right? Arana Jr was 10 points out of the lead with 2 races to go. What happened? He gave up a tenth of a second holeshot to Angie Smith in round 2 the very next race and kissed his season goodbye. Can't fault the HD crowd for that.

I get the rules being unfair, but the dominance is highly exaggerated.

 

[Rajunz]

To get back on track--
I doubt its 50 hp-25 or 30 maybe. HD's always had the best back half-they just now have a decent 60ft to go with the package......

That back half performance is due to the 4 valve heads, the Harleys definitely have a HP advantage. Both Arana and Matt Smith picked up their games when they started applying Pro Stock head technology to their bike heads a few years back, but as Arana Jr. said last week, there's no way his bike will hang with the HD's on the big end, he has to try and make it up in the 60'.

Unfortunately Koretsky will fall on deaf ears, HOWEVER, there is one person out there that has the power to make things right in the class, he's sponsoring two of the other top bikes out there right now!

 

[sammi]

The "not available" Harley bikes are starting to make the NHRA look like a candidate for an Emperor Wears No Clothes revival.

Speaking as a fan and a lowly bracket racer that actually races with a stock motorcycle engine, the class would be far more interesting to me if the equipment was based on something recognizable as stock.

Here's an idea. A pro "stock" bike class based on 600's could possibly be more popular with the fans. Stock cases, cylinders and heads. No welding. Remember race on Sunday, buy on Monday? The big four all have 600's and Harley could use their Sportster 1200(they need the help since they still embrace that 1920's technology). A field with Honda, Kawasaki, Yamaha, Suzuki, Triumph and Harley is far more engaging and relevant to people in the stands.

 

[Rat]

.

Where's that guy writing the stat book... does your book include PSM? How about some numbers to back up all these "fact" spewing folks. Oh yeah you say since mid 2011 its unbalanced.. Have you checked the 2011 race winners list? The HD bikes won 3 of the last 11 races of the season. How is that tilted in their favor? You do understand that means they LOST 8 races of 11 right? Arana Jr was 10 points out of the lead with 2 races to go. What happened? He gave up a tenth of a second holeshot to Angie Smith in round 2 the very next race and kissed his season goodbye. Can't fault the HD crowd for that.

I get the rules being unfair, but the dominance is highly exaggerated.

I have not been able to get to PSM yet as the project is massive, but i'm not talking race wins. I'm talking on actual on track performance relative to everyone else. They made MANY errors last year alonh with the occasional boggin or spin

 

[Professor Dave]

And what happened when they dropped those other classes?

NHRA was sued by the pro stock truck racers and the pro stock truck racers won-what they won is a secret because that was one of the terms. I doubt that the NHRA is soon going to drop a class and then replace it with another.

 

[Dave]

I have not been able to get to PSM yet as the project is massive, but i'm not talking race wins. I'm talking on actual on track performance relative to everyone else. They made MANY errors last year alonh with the occasional boggin or spin

Fair enough. I had a half hour on my lunch so I reviewed 2011. Of 127 possible sessions (2 rained out at Norwalk, and 1 extra at Indy) HD was quickest 53 times (42%) vs everyone else at 74(58%). At the Chicago race they weren't low of any session. Obviously if it is an all Harley final they are automatically low, and as soon as they both lose, the other manufacturers will be low. The HD folks turned up the wick for the last 6 races in the Chase. Here of 48 total rounds, they were low 27 (56%). However that's still only a slight tilt to their favor, and the others were close enough to overcome it with a holeshot. In fact there were a few instances of the HD's being low and losing the round.

It can be looked at any way you want and you can spin the numbers any way you want, but the parity in the class still exists for the different combinations used. No event was swept by the HD bikes, the closest they came was Charlotte 2 with 7 of 8 sessions in their favor.

 

[Rajunz]

While looking into those stats, consider that there are only 2 of them, vs. the rest of the field.........and also, prior to the Countdown, there was a bit of sandbagging going on. As soon as the Countdown started, they turned up the wicks.

 

[force fan]

I read a very interesting article on Comp Plus and Matt Smith had a few words to say on this. This is the last statement he made in the article.

Smith took things a step further and offered a challenge to Krawiec.

“If he thinks he is that good, build his own bike,” said Smith, who has been building his own motorcycles to race since 2006. “I challenge him to that because I remember when he couldn’t qualify. Go get his own bike and see how he does. Get away from the Vance & Hines team and see how you do.”

You guys should read the rest of it, if you haven't already.

 

[Dave]

While looking into those stats, consider that there are only 2 of them, vs. the rest of the field.........and also, prior to the Countdown, there was a bit of sandbagging going on. As soon as the Countdown started, they turned up the wicks.

To this I offer another view... I could do the same stats in Pro Stock using Greg Anderson and Jason Line with probably pretty similar results... then you would say "Oh that's only 2 of them vs the field." If not recently then certainly in the 2004-2005-2006 seasons. Quantity doesn't matter.

 

[Dave]

I read a very interesting article on Comp Plus and Matt Smith had a few words to say on this. This is the last statement he made in the article.

Smith took things a step further and offered a challenge to Krawiec.

“If he thinks he is that good, build his own bike,” said Smith, who has been building his own motorcycles to race since 2006. “I challenge him to that because I remember when he couldn’t qualify. Go get his own bike and see how he does. Get away from the Vance & Hines team and see how you do.”

You guys should read the rest of it, if you haven't already.

While there is a certain amount of respect for someone who builds and rides/drives their own car/bike, you can't take away from someone who does not. It's really kind of an ignorant thing to say. Eddie may be boastful because he is winning, but it sounds like sour grapes on Matt's part. A win is a win no matter whether you built it, bought it, or stole it.

 

[PiPPi]

Smith took things a step further and offered a challenge to Krawiec.

“If he thinks he is that good, build his own bike,” said Smith, who has been building his own motorcycles to race since 2006. “I challenge him to that because I remember when he couldn’t qualify. Go get his own bike and see how he does. Get away from the Vance & Hines team and see how you do.”

You guys should read the rest of it, if you haven't already.

Things are not cooling down, the article is at http://www.competitionplus.com/drag...e-psm-bickering-heats-up-again-parity-debated

Regards
PiPPi

 

[Rat]

A win is much more of a win in everyone's view if it's earned and evenly contested. It's not much of a win when it's so lopsided. No one in the community is taking there win seriously because it's easy to win when your competition is not even in the same ball park. Lack of parity makes that win look less deserving. Thanks for the link Lynn and Par. It looks like NHRA really blew the top off this "secret" this year. Most other years it was just annoying knowledge to everyone, but as of right now there (NHRA) funny business blew up in there face.

 

[Rat]

Here is possibly the best question of all. Why doesn't all of this crap stop and if HD wants the class so bad just make it an all HD class? I think that would at least be better to the fans and competitors than what we have now.

 

[MHayes]

While there is a certain amount of respect for someone who builds and rides/drives their own car/bike, you can't take away from someone who does not. It's really kind of an ignorant thing to say. Eddie may be boastful because he is winning, but it sounds like sour grapes on Matt's part. A win is a win no matter whether you built it, bought it, or stole it.

I couldn't have said it better myself Dave!!

 

[MHayes]

I read a very interesting article on Comp Plus and Matt Smith had a few words to say on this. This is the last statement he made in the article.

Smith took things a step further and offered a challenge to Krawiec.

“If he thinks he is that good, build his own bike,” said Smith, who has been building his own motorcycles to race since 2006. “I challenge him to that because I remember when he couldn’t qualify. Go get his own bike and see how he does. Get away from the Vance & Hines team and see how you do.”

You guys should read the rest of it, if you haven't already.

You should have been quoting Hector Arana instead of Matt Smith from that article! I really like Hector's attitude.....that shows how determined a racer he is!

"I can’t say nothing about the V-Rod (Harley-Davidsons) because if I have one of them and I find something, I am going to use it,” said Hector Arana Sr., the 2009 NHRA Pro Stock Motorcycle world champ, who rides a Buell. “They work hard and I believe that Byron (Hines) is a very smart man, and whatever he has got he is going to make it go fast. We were behind the 8-ball all along anyway (at the Gatornationals). We didn’t get parts on time from various venders and it hurt us. We were unable to test and we showed up at the track (for the Gatornationals) and I still had to finish my motor there. Saying all that, we did well. Driving back home, I’m thinking can I make up 5 mph? How can I make up a whole tenth (of a second) to run with them (the Harley-Davidsons)? We are just going to have to find horsepower and it is hard with this S&S motor. I’m just going to see what we can do to close this gap.”

 

[force fan]

While there is a certain amount of respect for someone who builds and rides/drives their own car/bike, you can't take away from someone who does not. It's really kind of an ignorant thing to say. Eddie may be boastful because he is winning, but it sounds like sour grapes on Matt's part. A win is a win no matter whether you built it, bought it, or stole it.

I don't think I would call Matt ignorant. I'm sure he knows a lot more than any of us do concerning this matter. And, I have to agree with him, no other bikes even came close to the HD in Gainesville. If NHRA is allowing them to use parts that gives them an edge on the competitors and these parts are not available to the other teams, then it is wrong IMO. I would bet anything that Matt is right, without HD Eddie probably couldn't even qualify using a bike he built!!! And I bet if Eddie were in the same position as everyone else, he would be *****ing just as much!!!

 

[Dave]

I don't think I would call Matt ignorant. I'm sure he knows a lot more than any of us do concerning this matter. And, I have to agree with him, no other bikes even came close to the HD in Gainesville. If NHRA is allowing them to use parts that gives them an edge on the competitors and these parts are not available to the other teams, then it is wrong IMO. I would bet anything that Matt is right, without HD Eddie probably couldn't even qualify using a bike he built!!! And I bet if Eddie were in the same position as everyone else, he would be *****ing just as much!!!

I'd like to clarify, I'm not calling Matt ignorant. I feel the comment he made is ignorant.

To further your point, I'd like to see Shawn Langdon and Khalid Balooshi build their own dragsters to compete with Alan Johnson. They wouldn't be able to even qualify without him! Do you see how ridiculous it sounds now?

 

[jackass]

I'd like to clarify, I'm not calling Matt ignorant. I feel the comment he made is ignorant.

To further your point, I'd like to see Shawn Langdon and Khalid Balooshi build their own dragsters to compete with Alan Johnson. Do you see how ridiculous it sounds now?

you might have missed the point of the statement... its more like.. put yourself in our shoes and he would understand why so many other racers feel the same way about the "advantage" of the HD riders..

 

[steveorino]

They should just replace this class with Pro Mods...

I agree 100 percent