Fuel Injection - NASCAR beats us to the punch (2 Viewers)

[Buzzz Miller]

It would be cool to see. No doubt. A little loss in initial ET and MPH. but they would probably pick that up in a year or so. It would still not look anything like a production line car/engine/etc. They can't really go to a na 358 or LS style engines because the competitors and fans just won't go with a second and a half and 30 mph drop in performance.
The cheating factor is a big one. There is no way that a standard black box program will be acceptable for the pro stock teams. So everyone will have their own program, programmer, etc. And then watch the traction control go nuts. Real time adjustments to clutches, shocks, timing fuel, etc. We thought it was bad years ago? We ain't seen nothing yet.
The only time cheating will be caught if the genius, the effort and the money in place to find the cheaters is anywhere close to that of the same being put in place to hide the cheaters. And that goes with anything. Olympic athletes with designer drugs, Major leage baseball or pro stock. And for right now, NHRA does not have in place the minds to catch a cheater. Would they be willing to step it up in hiring and $$?
I am still in favor of it. But don't think it is going to be a one stroke fix all. It will create problems that will fill this board in years to come.
Then we are looking at Detroit to help back this. Do they have the money or the desire to do any of this?

 

[Paul]

Buzz, you make a good point, if the system is open to re-programming it would be extremely difficult to keep tuners from effectively sneaking in traction control one way or the other, even if it didn't look like it was in there.

On the flip side, if the systems were highly controlled it would be heading down a "crate engine" path that would be pretty boring, like the current cookie cutter Indy cars.

I'd rather stay with the carbs than see the sport heading that direction.

Paul T.

 

[BlueStangGT]

It would be cool to see. No doubt. A little loss in initial ET and MPH. but they would probably pick that up in a year or so. It would still not look anything like a production line car/engine/etc. They can't really go to a na 358 or LS style engines because the competitors and fans just won't go with a second and a half and 30 mph drop in performance.
The cheating factor is a big one. There is no way that a standard black box program will be acceptable for the pro stock teams. So everyone will have their own program, programmer, etc. And then watch the traction control go nuts. Real time adjustments to clutches, shocks, timing fuel, etc. We thought it was bad years ago? We ain't seen nothing yet.
The only time cheating will be caught if the genius, the effort and the money in place to find the cheaters is anywhere close to that of the same being put in place to hide the cheaters. And that goes with anything. Olympic athletes with designer drugs, Major leage baseball or pro stock. And for right now, NHRA does not have in place the minds to catch a cheater. Would they be willing to step it up in hiring and $$?
I am still in favor of it. But don't think it is going to be a one stroke fix all. It will create problems that will fill this board in years to come.
Then we are looking at Detroit to help back this. Do they have the money or the desire to do any of this?

I don't think the performance drop would be quite as severe as your scenario depicts. Mettler ran 7.37 @ 182 back at Pomona in his PST and I don't think it's a stretch to say that that mark would be eclipsed in short order if you put the current PS brainiacs to work on the new combo. Wanna make it more interesting? Put 'em on 10.5's and allow traction control. If it's legal you don't have to police it. I suppose you could limit the number and type of sensors allowed, that wouldn't be too difficult to monitor as compared to trying to enforce programming rules.

 

[qtermile14]

I guess they're scared of fuel injection because they fear Pro Stock will lose it's parity?? Because it's difficult to police it? There are a million ways they could implement fuel injection and keep it fair. Come on, guys. It's 2009. Time to start using some technology from the '80's!

I remember a long time ago ago, maybe as long as ten years ago, that the NHRA was going to EFI, Then a few months before the end of the last season of carburetors, they announced due to problems with policing, that they would not be going to EFI.

 

[Buzzz Miller]

I don't think the performance drop would be quite as severe as your scenario depicts. Mettler ran 7.37 @ 182 back at Pomona in his PST.

I was figuring a 350(ish) true production line engine with the right casting numbers, that are found on cars currently rolling off the assembly line.
I promise you that there are no 7.30's hiding in a true production line engine.

And as a very side note; When they first announced that they were getting rid of pro stock truck, I wrote a few people to try and spark an idea that would keep away lawsuits, but bring new sponsors to PST and the NHRA and make the trucks a little faster and more fun to watch without the teams needing to drastically change parts. One simple nitrous plate on the bottom of each carburetor. Faster, get the nitrous people in the financial mix, finally use the 125" of wheelbase, and get an "Outlaw" feel to the failing trucks. I would have really loved to see that. (Ohhh - woulda, coulda, shoulda.)

 

[BlueStangGT]

I was figuring a 350(ish) true production line engine with the right casting numbers, that are found on cars currently rolling off the assembly line.
I promise you that there are no 7.30's hiding in a true production line engine.

Ahhh, I see your point. I was thinking production-based motors... x amount of weight for 2 valves per cylinder, y amount of weight for 3 valves per cylinder, etc. The only way for a Ford to get the 350-ish cubes in one of their current modular V8's is overbore+resleeve/spraybore/stroker. The current 5.4 ltr. mod motor at 3.550 bore is about 330 cubes, an overbore/resleeve/spraybore to 3.700 gets it close to 353 or so. The overbore/resleeve deal is what I've done to my aluminum-block 4.6 ltr. (281 ci, now 304 ci) motor.

And as a very side note; When they first announced that they were getting rid of pro stock truck, I wrote a few people to try and spark an idea that would keep away lawsuits, but bring new sponsors to PST and the NHRA and make the trucks a little faster and more fun to watch without the teams needing to drastically change parts. One simple nitrous plate on the bottom of each carburetor. Faster, get the nitrous people in the financial mix, finally use the 125" of wheelbase, and get an "Outlaw" feel to the failing trucks. I would have really loved to see that. (Ohhh - woulda, coulda, shoulda.)

 

[tcrawf]

Kenny was right on with the $$$$$$ for Carb.
then you split them in half and other things these guys do with them it's crazy.

no kidding . . .

I remember the engine masters article with Kaase's 400m motor in it. He was very reluctant to even show under the carb and that was for some little contest with money but mostly publicity on the line.

 

[my friends call me Zappy]

Just a ?? here: Whats the problem some have with traction control???
Like Tom said above - give 'em F/I and traction control, if it's legal, you DON'T HAVE TO police it. Problem solved.

 

[DaveRenk]

Just a ?? here: Whats the problem some have with traction control???
Like Tom said above - give 'em F/I and traction control, if it's legal, you DON'T HAVE TO police it. Problem solved.

They have TC now....They do it with the clutch adjustments.

 

[yoda]

NASCAR seems to have us covered on all the bases, it seems:

Obama Honors NASCAR Drivers at White House - Political News - FOXNews.com

Didn't Garlits go to the White House in the 70's with the early RED?
How, where most of our Professional catagories run fuels that would be considered "alternative" , we can't get the Association to sell us over a Series that still is required to burn fossil fuels en mass?

Just askin-

Back to the discussion at hand

 

[my friends call me Zappy]

Don't know about the White House, but Garlits car was put in the Smithsonian.

 

[yoda]

Don't know about the White House, but Garlits car was put in the Smithsonian.

Nixon White House in '71...

(Got these new pills that get rid of that darn C.R.S. disease....)

 

[Bill]

>>>"NHRA will have to have a way to "police" the use of EFI and it's controllers,so that no cheating happens.Once they figure a system,I think they will go EFI."

How about this: No changes to the engine EXCEPT, the (new) fuel delivery system cannot use a carburetor and cannot have a total air entry to the manifold, the size of which exceeds the combined throttle plate area of two (2) current, Pro Stock-legal, Holley Dominators. ONE air entry per cylinder bank (that would be half the total.) DUH....

The fuel injection electronics can be ANYTHING THEY CAN COME UP WITH...
Mixing gasoline and air in a ratio of approximately 11-to-1 is not exactly rocket science, if you have a wideband oxygen/fuel meter, so what kind of advantages deemed "unfair" would NHRA be trying to police?

Why would they care, how it gets done???

If someone can figure out a better mousetrap, let them run it! "Ingenuity in action" was Wally's credo for YEARS.... let 'em run what they can invent/figure out!

The restricted air intake will limit what the engine can produce... that's the only thing in the entire system that would need any "policing," at all, as I see it.

Traction control? As someone pointed out, they effectively have it now, with the infinitely adjustable clutch setups they already run, so why not make it less of a chore and do it electronically??? It is, after all, 2009; not 1956...

Now, will somebody who can come up with a logical, technically-correct reason why this is not a viable plan, please tell me what I have missed.

The electronic "policing" by NHRA of a fuel delivery system would seem to be both unnecessary and undesirable. Why would they CARE who ran what system??? This is, in fact, a competition, part of which is the ability to "one-up" the guy in the other lane, technologically, isn't it???

That's been the essence of "drag racing" more than any other motorsport, since day one, and a large part of drag racing's appeal... at least, for me...

Well, let's let 'em DO IT! Why make this any more complicated than it has to be???

Bill
Addendum: Might want to write a new hood scoop rule, and outlaw "direct injection" or pressures over, say, 100 psi. The should be plenty to spray 1,500 HP's worth of gasoline into a plenum or intake port. They're probably not going to make any more power than that, anyway, with that size (restricted) intake spec.


Bill