Fuel Injection - NASCAR beats us to the punch (1 Viewer)

[vegasnitro]

For the few of you that pay attention to my ramblings, you know that I have long been in favor Pro Stock moving to a real stock application of Fuel Injection (and flat hoods, stock blocks and cranks, etc etc).

It was announced today that NASCAR is exploring the possibility of moving to Fuel Injection for the 2011 season. ALL of the manufacturers in NASCAR enthusiastically endorsed the move. Toyota racing director Lee White: "No question, because everyone right now is spending an absolute fortune on carburetor technology that has absolute zero application in real life."

In a situation where NHRA could have been the leader, now if Pro Stock goes that way it will only be seen as a reactionary move and manufacturer pressure is likely to increase on NHRA to move in this direction if NASCAR follows through instead of the other way around.

Don't get me wrong, I dig Pro Stock, but the class needs a makeover (IMO) to become more relevant in the motorsports landscape.

NASCAR pondering move to fuel injection - ESPN

 

[4g63rwd]

I'm not surprised by this. Seems like these carbuertor companies have the NHRA in their pockets or something. I've been waiting for someone (NHRA) to explain how they can have cars in a class called "Pro STOCK" that race with 500 cubic inch engines, 2 4 barrel carburetors, huge hood scoops and look nothing at all like the car they're modeled after. I can't remember any Cobalts coming off the assembly line with 2 big 4 barrel carburetors. I must have missed that press release. I guess they're scared of fuel injection because they fear Pro Stock will lose it's parity?? Because it's difficult to police it? There are a million ways they could implement fuel injection and keep it fair. Come on, guys. It's 2009. Time to start using some technology from the '80's!

 

[Butch]

I've been waiting for someone (NHRA) to explain how they can have cars in a class called "Pro STOCK" that race with 500 cubic inch engines, 2 4 barrel carburetors, huge hood scoops and look nothing at all like the car they're modeled after. I can't remember any Cobalts coming off the assembly line with 2 big 4 barrel carburetors. It's 2009. Time to start using some technology from the '80's!

You forgot the FWD/RWD part. To me todays P/S is a joke. I'll take the 1978 version, start with using real cars.

 

[john]

I've been waiting for someone (NHRA) to explain how they can have cars in a class called "Pro STOCK" that race with 500 cubic inch engines, 2 4 barrel carburetors, huge hood scoops and look nothing at all like the car they're modeled after. I can't remember any Cobalts coming off the assembly line with 2 big 4 barrel carburetors. I must have missed that press release.

Well at least you got the one on tube chassis and 500 cubic inch V8s.

 

[Gordon]

I'm in favor of a switch to fuel injection as well.

As fun as Pro Stock is, I actually enjoy Comp Eliminator more these days. But then again, the argument, or one of them anyway, for staying with carburetors has been cost - the cost to essentially change everything... heads, manifold, the fuel injection itself, etc. When one considers how much money the folks in Comp Eliminator spend, it seems to be a logical argument. Then again, if the Sportsmen racers can spend that much, why not the Pros? Another argument has been ability or inability to police FI. Well again, we're policing Sportsmen racers, aren't we?

Either way, it would have to be a phased approach... and I wouldn't be opposed to shrinking the motors down a few cubes either. NASCAR runs 358 C.I.D., why do we feel we need 500?

 

[vegasnitro]

I am with ya Gordon ... I would love to see them go to true stock blocks and displacement along with the fuel injection. If Pro Stock would go that route, most of the R+D may already be done by the manufacturers, as the teams would be able to use parts already developed for other applications such as road racing or parts right off the shelf. Or the manufacturers may even be willing to get involved in development, as there could possibly be an actual technology transfer from the strip to the street.

 

[Randy]

I got skewered for this almost 2 years ago. It ended up with 90 responses...

http://www.nitromater.com/nhra/11660-were-talking-pro-stock.html

.

 

[vegasnitro]

I got skewered for this almost 2 years ago. It ended up with 90 responses...

http://www.nitromater.com/nhra/11660-were-talking-pro-stock.html

.

I had post #50 in the thread backing you up Randy ...

 

[Crew Chief Pro]

I don't get why. You would end up spending thousands of dollars and getting really no benefit. The actual ET difference would be minimal compared to the cost.

With the cost of competing so high already and the sanctioning bodies trying to save money I don't think this will happen anytime soon.

5 years from now who knows...

 

[BlueStangGT]

I got skewered for this almost 2 years ago. It ended up with 90 responses...

http://www.nitromater.com/nhra/11660-were-talking-pro-stock.html

.

I remember it well....

I had post #50 in the thread backing you up Randy ...

#21 for me as follows:

This subject's come up several times in the last few years here. The turbo idea is cool but I think it's unrealistic.

I'd like to see PS go to roughly PST engine sizes and allow EFI. You'd then have the possibility of seeing motors within reach of factory-floor dimensions. LS, Hemi, and Ford OHC motors would all be eligible. Imagine having Mustangs vs. Camaros vs. Challengers vs. GTO's with factory size motors, who'd a thunk it?

I don't get why. You would end up spending thousands of dollars and getting really no benefit. The actual ET difference would be minimal compared to the cost.

With the cost of competing so high already and the sanctioning bodies trying to save money I don't think this will happen anytime soon.

5 years from now who knows...

I don't see it being an issue of ET but more so the benefit of R&D to real world applications and vehicles that are more like their street-driven, available-at-your-neighborhood-dealership counterparts.

 

[Reese]

I'm in favor of a switch to fuel injection as well.

As fun as Pro Stock is, I actually enjoy Comp Eliminator more these days. But then again, the argument, or one of them anyway, for staying with carburetors has been cost - the cost to essentially change everything... heads, manifold, the fuel injection itself, etc. When one considers how much money the folks in Comp Eliminator spend, it seems to be a logical argument. Then again, if the Sportsmen racers can spend that much, why not the Pros? Another argument has been ability or inability to police FI. Well again, we're policing Sportsmen racers, aren't we?

Either way, it would have to be a phased approach... and I wouldn't be opposed to shrinking the motors down a few cubes either. NASCAR runs 358 C.I.D., why do we feel we need 500?

I like the way you think.

 

[Gordon]

I like the way you think.

I've never been accused of thinking before... Thank you! Seriously though, I love Pro Stock as much as any class, but it's probably time to join the new millenium... As long as they don't try to tell the Pro Stock guys where they can and can't test and/or run their cars... Oops, did I write that out loud?

 

[Super Mod]

I don't get why. You would end up spending thousands of dollars and getting really no benefit. The actual ET difference would be minimal compared to the cost.

With the cost of competing so high already and the sanctioning bodies trying to save money I don't think this will happen anytime soon.

5 years from now who knows...

I think Yates would be one who would agree with this position.

 

[Terry]

I think it was about 5 years ago when Warren said in an interview about EFI in pro stock that at that time, the only new thing you could buy with a carburetor is a lawn mower. Anyone else remember that?

 

[Ron]

I think it was about 5 years ago when Warren said in an interview about EFI in pro stock that at that time, the only new thing you could buy with a carburetor is a lawn mower. Anyone else remember that?

He also said it would be cheaper to run EFI in total operating costs.

 

[Demon]

NHRA will have to have a way to "police" the use of EFI and it's controllers,so that no cheating happens.Once they figure a system,I think they will go EFI.

Lee White's statement doesn't make much sense to me.."spending a fortune" on carburetor technology.What fortune?? A carburetor is a VERY simple method of fuel metering,not much you can do to it within the rules and very easy to run.

 

[Ron]

NHRA will have to have a way to "police" the use of EFI and it's controllers,so that no cheating happens.Once they figure a system,I think they will go EFI.

Lee White's statement doesn't make much sense to me.."spending a fortune" on carburetor technology.What fortune?? A carburetor is a VERY simple method of fuel metering,not much you can do to it within the rules and very easy to run.

The problem of policing "cheating" has been solved by many racing sanctions. It just requires having personnel who don't faint over the prospect of having to understand some elementary electronic systems.

In the world of electronics, auto engine control systems are about as simple as it gets. Use a standard controller and just check to see if the core code has been modified by reading it out and doing a 1-1 comparison against the standard supplied code. It's easier and a lot faster then checking most any rules defined mechanical measurement.

 

[sharkman]

NHRA will have to have a way to "police" the use of EFI and it's controllers,so that no cheating happens.Once they figure a system,I think they will go EFI.

Lee White's statement doesn't make much sense to me.."spending a fortune" on carburetor technology.What fortune?? A carburetor is a VERY simple method of fuel metering,not much you can do to it within the rules and very easy to run.

I know for a fact that in 1996 a Junior Johnson prepped Holley approved for cup racing cost over 8 grand, and there is no telling what WJ would get for one of his right now. Thats why they cover them with towels so those who know, dont see.

 

[AAFA-Freak]

Kenny was right on with the $$$$$$ for Carb.
then you split them in half and other things these guys do with them it's crazy.

 

[Paul]

EFI would be very interesting to see in both Pro Stock and NASCAR, but I don't think its going to save anybody any money, unless the systems are highly restricted (ie a "don't touch" black box).

Its a tough call, if the boxes are restricted it won't be as interesting to watch the transitions and see which teams get it figured out best first.

But if its not restricted the amount of time and money you could spend trying to optimize it would be huge, at least for a couple of years.

Paul T.