Cost of Sponsorship (1 Viewer)

[Gipraw]

1. Companies should look at the fan loyalty that NHRA fans have with their driver's sponsor. Many times NHRA fans will buy a product just because it sponsors their favorite driver's car. The majority of NASCAR fans don't give a hoot who sponsors their favorite driver's car.

I haven't seen numbers in a couple of years, but the last time I saw a breakdown, Nascar fans were the most brand loyal of all fans with their dollars.

Those numbers may have slipped a little in the last few years, but saying they don't give a hoot is wrong.


The value of an NHRA sponsorship is not understood by most companies, and when properly activated (Castrol, Traxxis, Bud to name a few) can be far reaching, but it can't compete with Nascar due to their overall reach and exposure.

 

[Justin@NRE]

I think part of what you see for brand loyalty with NHRA sponsors is the fact that there are so many more actual racers involved. The other part I think is due to the drivers being so much more available to the fans. There is a feeling of reciprocity when somebody takes time to talk to you, take a picture with you, sign whatever you want signed, out of the hundreds of others surrounding them. You see NASCAR drivers on TV or through a fence and that's about it. Not to mention, NASCAR is sponsored in some part by almost every brand you can think of, so I would think it would be difficult to create the same loyalty. They pay their money in the hopes their logo will be on TV for 3 hours straight during primetime going "fast" on a race car.

Drag racing translates horribly to TV if you're a casual viewer, I don't care how good the announcing is. If it was a primetime live show and you tune in just to watch fuel cars, it would be like a football game that has a halftime length break every 4 plays. Not to mention for sponsors, the car spends more time in the pit than it does going down the track. Also bad for sponsor TV time. The only saving grace is that cameras and fans swarm the pits.

One thing I think NHRA could do a better job of on the show, and I have always thought this, was education on the parts used and how they effect a tune up. NASCAR has shows devoted just to tech and people eat it up. People know what a round of wedge is, loose, tight and how they fix it. How many people know what a slide valve is? How many people have ever seen a meat grinder looking fuel clutch and know how it works, how they tune it? How many people have ever seen a Pro Stock Carb or know how it works differently and how much more tuneable is it than your standard street 4-barrel?

That's the best part about NHRA is that there is more than one type of car to talk about how it works. Granted, a lot of people could care less. They just know stuff goes quick and don't care how it does. It has been my experience that most NHRA fans are a lot more curious and could maybe make a stronger connection knowing all that information. And I think there is a lot of information that could be given without giving away any tune-up secrets.

I think things like that would help dispel any of the myths about how much skill is involved getting something to go in a straight line. I think if the average person better understood the precision decisions and work it takes to just get a car off the starting line, let alone down the track straight, let alone quickly without blowing up, people might feel differently about driving in a straight line.

 

[HEMI6point1]

*snip*The other part I think is due to the drivers being so much more available to the fans. There is a feeling of reciprocity when somebody takes time to talk to you, take a picture with you, sign whatever you want signed, out of the hundreds of others surrounding them. You see NASCAR drivers on TV or through a fence and that's about it. *snip*

That's another thing I forgot to mention. In NASCAR the closest you'll get to Dale Jr or Jeff Gordon is through binoculars. In NHRA you can go right up to your favorite driver and interact with him/her. That's a BIG advantage if you ask me.

 

[clwill]

You have a link for that?

Not on my phone, but I just googled it. The NASCAR numbers are public, and were listed race to race, the NHRA numbers were average.

 

[clwill]

One thing I think NHRA could do a better job of on the show, and I have always thought this, was education on the parts used and how they effect a tune up. NASCAR has shows devoted just to tech and people eat it up. People know what a round of wedge is, loose, tight and how they fix it. How many people know what a slide valve is? How many people have ever seen a meat grinder looking fuel clutch and know how it works, how they tune it? How many people have ever seen a Pro Stock Carb or know how it works differently and how much more tuneable is it than your standard street 4-barrel?

I applaud your general point, but you (and the sport) need to fast-forward about 20 years --- the last time a carb was available for purchase on a new car. There is no such thing as a "standard street 4-barrel" and the average person under 30 doesn't even know what that means.

 

[clwill]

Speaking of sponsorship, I saw this announcement and wondered if the Official XXXX... thing had finally jumped the shark. What's next, Official TP?

Yes I applaud JFR for getting every sponsor wherever they can, but... Really?

 

[vegasnitro]

Don't use logic and numbers here Chris. It confuses people.

It's wintertime ... I am bored. Once the season starts, I allow people their delusions LOL.

 

[Justin@NRE]

I applaud your general point, but you (and the sport) need to fast-forward about 20 years --- the last time a carb was available for purchase on a new car. There is no such thing as a "standard street 4-barrel" and the average person under 30 doesn't even know what that means.

We all know those engines are dinosaurs in basic design. I think the hook is "if we're able to do this with 30 year old engine designs by using today's methods and tools of testing and manufacturing, imagine what we could do with today's engines." Which is a scary thought in and of itself, as well as part of the reason they haven't migrated. It's a lot harder to tune a fuel curve using multiple stages of jets on a carb than it is to plug in a laptop and tell a computer to tell an injector to deliver more or less fuel.

 

[clwill]

We all know those engines are dinosaurs in basic design. I think the hook is "if we're able to do this with 30 year old engine designs by using today's methods and tools of testing and manufacturing, imagine what we could do with today's engines." Which is a scary thought in and of itself, as well as part of the reason they haven't migrated. It's a lot harder to tune a fuel curve using multiple stages of jets on a carb than it is to plug in a laptop and tell a computer to tell an injector to deliver more or less fuel.

You and I know that. And yet, our future is enticing a kid driving a small four cylinder car with variable valve timing, overhead cams, EFI, and maybe a turbo.

The sport used to be awe-inspiring to the fans, and especially the future generations, because they could draw the line between what they drove and what they saw on the track. That's a key to NASCAR's attraction (see my first post in this thread). For your average person under 30, the term "four barrel street carb" and "flux capacitor" mean just about the same thing.

 

[HEMI6point1]

Wasn't it mentioned here a while back that it was the racers who didn't want EFI implemented because it would be easier to cheat, not to mention very costly to implement?

That said, I'm pretty sure there are some Pro Stock teams that have secretely tested a motor with EFI on it.

Oh, BTW.... I'm 30 and know what a carburetor is.

 

[clwill]

Wasn't it mentioned here a while back that it was the racers who didn't want EFI implemented because it would be easier to cheat, not to mention very costly to implement?

That said, I'm pretty sure there are some Pro Stock teams that have secretely tested a motor with EFI on it.

The hard costs aren't that bad, the issue for many is the learning curve and testing. I have worked with three different EFI boxes on our race car, and have four of them in my garage right now. They are not rocket science.

As for cheating, that problem has been solved, in NASCAR, F1, IndyCar and other places. They use a spec box, mostly from McLaren (here) that is tamper-resistant and subject to replacement by the officials on even the slightest suspicion.

And not to get too far afield, but aside from traction control, what does "cheating" mean? My tuneup is better than yours? Even with traction control -- if everyone has the same box, what's the diff?

Oh, BTW.... I'm 30 and know what a carburetor is.

That sentence explains a whole lot...

 

[vegasnitro]

The hard costs aren't that bad, the issue for many is the learning curve and testing. I have worked with three different EFI boxes on our race car, and have four of them in my garage right now. They are not rocket science.

There is an article up at CompPlus right now about Mountain Motor Pro Stock using EFI. It lists parts cost at 15K and testing (I am assuming Dyno and not on the track) at 10K. So ADRL is going to go back to Carbs while XDRL will be going EFI. Sucks for the Mountain Motor guys, there were already limited opportunities for them to race their cars, now they are basically split in half (though I do suppose they can run both setups at non-conflicting events ... seems like a hassle though).

 

[Nunz]

With how advanced carbs are now, is there any expected performance advantage with EFI?

 

[clwill]

With how advanced carbs are now, is there any expected performance advantage with EFI?

Start with the fact that every production car for the last 20 years has had EFI. One has to believe the automakers are doing that for some reason.

Add in the fact that you get at most four fuel tuning points with a carb (idle, low, middle, and high bleeds) vs 16 (or more) with an EFI system. Much finer control.

Stir in a bunch more control based on the conditions such as air temp, coolant temp, manifold pressure, throttle position, rate of throttle change, and so on.

Pile on all the levels of control over spark, boost, and power adders.

Add on a layer that includes the ability to tune each and every cylinder for fuel and spark.

Top it off with my experience, been running it on our ~1000hp car and the performance difference is one of amazing consistency, very detailed control, and ease of monitoring and tuning. Something goes weird, I can see it and tune it within minutes, usually without getting my hands dirty.

So short answer to your question? Yes, it's worth it.

 

[clwill]

There is an article up at CompPlus right now about Mountain Motor Pro Stock using EFI. It lists parts cost at 15K and testing (I am assuming Dyno and not on the track) at 10K.

I am not a Mountain Motor expert, but let me lay out what I know:

• You need a new manifold, which is not more/less expensive than a carb one, but it is different. So that's a change. Great custom manifolds run in the $3-5000 range with throttle bodies, depending on how fancy and who builds it.
• You need injectors. The best billet injectors will run you somewhere between $200-300 a pop, depending on how much power you want to make. So there's another $2-3000
• You need an EFI box. The big four out there now are Big Stuff, FAST, Holley, and MoTeC. They are all in the same neighborhood of ~$1500-2000 for the box, and about 1/2 that again for the wiring harnesses and stuff you'll need. So there's $3000.
• And you'll need a new fuel pump and regulator. Don't cheap out here, so you're looking at another $1500 if you include the lines and whatnot.
• Finally there's some sensors, some can be reused (crank, water, etc.) but you'll need a throttle position sensor and maybe a cam sensor. All told, though that's maybe about $1000.

That's what you need if you stick with a distributor. About $10-12k. If you choose to go DIS (which many -- including me) are, you'll need to add on another $2000 for coils, harness and so on.

But remember this isn't all "added cost". If you build from scratch for EFI, the manifold is about the same. Two killer carbs will cost you what the injectors do. A classic ignition box, coil, and distributor are no less expensive than a bunch of separate coils. And so on. All in all, my guess is that EFI from the start is maybe $2-3k more. Not a lot on a total car build for the return it provides.

Yes, there is a learning curve. Yes, in two years, with two different boxes, I have burnt up a pantload of fuel and 3-1/2 days of dyno time (with another day scheduled this year as we go to a new manifold) plus a bunch of testing on the track. No, I'll never go back.

 

[the zone]

I would guess that the average attendance for an NHRA event is around 60,000-65,000.

Dean

 

[Justin@NRE]

Start with the fact that every production car for the last 20 years has had EFI. One has to believe the automakers are doing that for some reason.

Add in the fact that you get at most four fuel tuning points with a carb (idle, low, middle, and high bleeds) vs 16 (or more) with an EFI system. Much finer control.

Stir in a bunch more control based on the conditions such as air temp, coolant temp, manifold pressure, throttle position, rate of throttle change, and so on.

Part of the problem with all the goodies you mention about EFI is Pro Stock, or any other Pro class in NHRA, is not allowed to use computer systems to control any engine function based on feedback from sensors other than a tach. They already have incredible spark control in their MSD systems where you can adjust individual cylinders and set RPM based timing curves, time based shock settings but that's about it. Everything has to be preset before it is pulled into the water box, running changes in any program are considered illegal. That's where I think the concern of cheating comes in.

Also, their carbs have 4-5 points of adjustment for EACH barrel in the carb. I thought I dealt with a lot of jets on an alcohol car, but they have twice as many as we do. At sometimes $7+k/set, they aren't going to be too keen on making them useless.

I just don't think you'll see EFI and full ECU's in NHRA Pro Stock until they change engine packages more towards today's designs. And with as invested as most of these teams are in the current design, I don't think you'll see that happening without some MAJOR factory support for NHRA and the teams. Then you have a whole new parity problem to deal with. NASCAR went EFI, but they are still using dinosaur motors for the same reason.. Easier to maintain a level playing field.

 

[clwill]

I want anyone to explain to me how it's "cheating" if everyone has an identical box? If the box has no traction control features in it, then they can't use traction control...

I also don't understand the fascination with traction control. Simple fact is that a good, clean run tuned for the conditions will always be faster than even a computer that is busy catching the slip, responding to it, reapplying power, etc. There are lots of race organzations who race everyday with it, and their world hasn't collapsed into a heap.

Here again, it seems like a bunch of people just need to move ahead a few decades.

 

[Justin@NRE]

I want anyone to explain to me how it's "cheating" if everyone has an identical box? If the box has no traction control features in it, then they can't use traction control...

I also don't understand the fascination with traction control. Simple fact is that a good, clean run tuned for the conditions will always be faster than even a computer that is busy catching the slip, responding to it, reapplying power, etc. There are lots of race organzations who race everyday with it, and their world hasn't collapsed into a heap.

Here again, it seems like a bunch of people just need to move ahead a few decades.

What exactly are you controlling with said box given to everyone? Just fuel curve? Fuel and timing? Talking about a full sensor driven ECU? We all know that traction control can really only save a run, not really make it quicker/faster. I don't think anyone is talking about traction control being used as a cheating device, but someone more familiar with electronics could figure out how to fool such an ECU system by tweaking the input signals if you can't control or change the output directly.

The other thing is other organizations in motorsports aren't dependent on thousandths of a second of system response for everything to work.

I'm totally for an update to Pro Stock and I have been for a long time, but the reality is you're setting up a whole new system to police and enforce. That means time and money for training tech and crews. Time and money in a new system of rules. Time and money for the teams to test proposed rules. Like I said before, unless somebody steps up to the plate with MAJOR bucks to see it through, it isn't going to happen anytime soon.

 

[vegasnitro]

I'm totally for an update to Pro Stock and I have been for a long time, but the reality is you're setting up a whole new system to police and enforce. That means time and money for training tech and crews. Time and money in a new system of rules. Time and money for the teams to test proposed rules. Like I said before, unless somebody steps up to the plate with MAJOR bucks to see it through, it isn't going to happen anytime soon.

ADRL did it last year with the Mountain Motor boys, XDRL is doing it this year.

There doesn't seem to be any major factory support there, nor are the sanctioning bodies afraid of teching/policing the cars.

As an aside, I have long made my feelings known about Pro Stock on this board. I want EFI, factory looking cars, stock displacement and true stock blocks ... but we are never going to see that. I get my kicks watching the CoPo's, CobraJets and Challengers in Stock/Super Stock these days, which are basically what was described above. Fun to watch!