BIG speeds in pro stock (1 Viewer)

[NGNBLDR]

Sorry Bob, Bill and the Dr. if my formula seemed to upset you. I thought it was humorous actually. Some thought it was but others didn't. Numbers are numbers and that's all they are. Every dyno is different, some are high and some are low. So who really knows whose dyno is actually accurate right? I just hope we have enough to win the championship this year. Go Mike Edwards!

 

[Sean D, shondoo]

I'm cool with what you're saying, Nick. It is what it is. But when I mentioned your name, along with some of the others, I figured you could at least tell us which was closer. I mean, damn; some of the claims seem to be in the 1,400 - 1,450 range, while the others are talking 1,700 - 1,800+. That's a hell of a spread. Surely you can divulge which group is closer............

Sean D

 

[willy]

I think it's cool. If I was the Man responsible for the engine on the leader of the pack! I ain't sayin' sh!t..LOL

Maybe after Pomona, Nick will open up a bit..but I doubt it.

He deserves his space as I see it.

 

[DaveRenk]

Sorry Bob, Bill and the Dr. if my formula seemed to upset you. I thought it was humorous actually. Some thought it was but others didn't. Numbers are numbers and that's all they are. Every dyno is different, some are high and some are low. So who really knows whose dyno is actually accurate right? I just hope we have enough to win the championship this year. Go Mike Edwards!

Are dyno readings converted to standard conditions (air pressure, altitude, etc.) or do they spit out data as-is?

 

[yoda]

Sorry Bob, Bill and the Dr. if my formula seemed to upset you. I thought it was humorous actually. Some thought it was but others didn't. Numbers are numbers and that's all they are. Every dyno is different, some are high and some are low. So who really knows whose dyno is actually accurate right? I just hope we have enough to win the championship this year. Go Mike Edwards!

Amen! Almost everything we use in this sport differs from someone elses... especially range measuring devices. Hell, tire pressure gauges can be +/- 5%... imagine the differences between dynos that are maintained by two totally different groups of people and have to contend with 2,000 hp....

Point is, find YOUR "right" measurements and make things work around those figures and that information

 

[Bill]

Armand,

Things are tough all over; How would you like to own a 425hp A/SA '69 Camaro and have the honor of trying to outrun, not only the 700+ HP blown, injected, 4-valve-per cylinder Mustangs, with their laughable 425HP factor, but, now, the Drag pack Challengers are starting to come out of the woodwork, and they're almost as fast as the Mustangs...

At least, you have some options; you can sell the 'Glide, take the money and put it towards a Billy Lynn (Searcy, Arkansas) TH-metric 200, and get rid of that horsepower-accumulating chassis and put that 283 into something that doesn't carry all that HP your friend keeps earning, for you.

A guy with a 283 has TONS of options... Lots of Chevys had that motor, in a lot of years.

Cap'n Jack McCarthy put a 3-speed in his 283 wagon (U/SA car) and, at last report, wasn't running a bit quicker than with the 'glide... go figure...

Might consider, there are no flies on a 'glide with a good convertor!!!....

Good luck.... you're better off than a lot of guys.

Bill, in Conway, Arkansas

 

[haagar]

Are dyno readings converted to standard conditions (air pressure, altitude, etc.) or do they spit out data as-is?

I know the Superflow dynos let you enter the atmospheric conditions and then will give you actual as well as corrected numbers. I know they are corrected to sea level for the altitude. I would think the other dynos would do the same. If they didn't it would be a lot more difficult to compare pulls.

 

[Nunz]

I respect Nick or anyone else not wanting to divulge HP numbers, but I don't get it really. First of all, all the PS cars have to be very, very close. Because so many different numbers have been spit out, I doubt giving us curious Maters a "ballpark" number is going to hurt anyone. And Professor Dave, when I was a little kid, my dad was a national record holder in A/A and being in upstate NY, obviously a Div.1 racer, so you are automatically one of my favorite maters! I get your reasons for not wanting to have been in Virginia, but as a fan, I gotta think it would have been wild!

 

[Rajunz]

I don't get it, HP is just a number. Everyone knows that right now Mike Edwards is making more HP than the rest of the pack. What does it matter what that number is, it's still more than the rest are making. Why not divulge it, it gives the rest of the pack a number to shoot towards.

How ART got to that number is the real speed secret, and worth guarding, but what does the actual number matter anyways???

 

[nick name]

...At least, you have some options; you can sell the 'Glide, take the money and put it towards a Billy Lynn (Searcy, Arkansas) TH-metric 200, and get rid of that horsepower-accumulating chassis and put that 283 into something that doesn't carry all that HP your frriend keeps earning, for you.

A guy with a 283 has TONS of options...

I think you've answered your own question and haven't realized it.

IF a Pro Stock team manages to pick up a hundredth (yes, I know how hard that is) they will maintain a competitive advantage if the other racers don't know whether it's in the clutch can, the chassis, the body, the carbs, the crank, the heads, the transmission....

As for dynos, they are corrected to SAE standard but that's about the same thing as saying all languages contain vowels. In today's state of the art the SAE "standardization" means everybody has different numbers; just like the same vowels being used in Russian, English, and French don't mean that understanding one language lets you understand all of them.

Jere Stahl was on a serious crusade to identify and correct the variables and I was lucky enough to work with him on a project a few years back. I never got anywhere near where we needed to be, mostly because few understood or cared that it made a difference.

Look at it this way: Larry Morgan buys a micrometer and Warren Johnson buys another one. Their readings vary by 10% but everybody decides that's OK if they never switch tools. No one would accept that lack of precision in our measurement tools, but's it's accepted practice in horsepower levels.

And since I'm rambling at this point, I'd answer a previous question from another thread regarding the fairly rapid gains in ET and MPH among Pro Stockers. If we're just looking between the front tires, we're missing a big part of the equation. When the bodies started getting Funny (pun intended) with one-piece front end, narrow quarters, etc., there was a lot of performance gained.

 

[DaveRenk]

I think you've answered your own question and haven't realized it.

IF a Pro Stock team manages to pick up a hundredth (yes, I know how hard that is) they will maintain a competitive advantage if the others racers don't know whether it's in the clutch can, the chassis, the body, the carbs, the crank, the heads, the transmission....

As for dynos, they are corrected to SAE standard but that's about the same thing as saying all languages contain vowels. In today's state of the art the SAE "standardization" means everybody has different numbers; just like the same vowels being used in Russian, English, and French don't mean mean that understanding one language lets you understand all of them.

Jere Stahl was on a serious crusade to identify and correct the variables and I was lucky enough to work with him on a project a few years back. I never got anywhere near where we needed to be, mostly because few understood or cared that it made a difference.

Look at it this way: Larry Morgan buys a micrometer and Warren Johnson buys another one. Their readings vary by 10% but everybody decides that's OK if they never switch tools. No one would accept that lack of precision in our measurement tools, but's it's accepted practice in horsepower levels.

And since I'm rambling at this point, I'd answer a previous question from another thread regarding the fairly rapid gains in ET and MPH among Pro Stockers. If we're just looking between the front tires, we're missing a big part of the equation. When the bodies started getting Funny (pun intended) with one-piece front end, narrow quarters, etc., there was a lot of performance gained.

Great Post!

 

[clwill]

In today's state of the art the SAE "standardization" means everybody has different numbers; just like the same vowels being used in Russian, English, and French don't mean that understanding one language lets you understand all of them.

While I understand and agree with your premise, in fact the Russian language uses it's own alphabet and the vowels are quite different.

Look at it this way: Larry Morgan buys a micrometer and Warren Johnson buys another one. Their readings vary by 10% but everybody decides that's OK if they never switch tools. No one would accept that lack of precision in our measurement tools, but's it's accepted practice in horsepower levels.

There's a huge difference, though. You buy thousands of parts from hundreds of vendors that all need to be precisely the same measurement to work effectively.

There's no such situation in horsepower measurements, is there? I'm not aware of a situation where anyone wants/needs to compare or utilize horsepower numbers between each other, only relative to their own system. Does this change add HP to our setup or not? That's a self-relative comparison, and I don't need to compare/synch with others do I?

In fact, it's probably better to NOT be able to have others know/compare my HP numbers for competitive reasons. As another poster noted there are so many variables in a PS car, if we all new that Morgan's advantage was HP, that'd tell us a lot. A couple of years ago, the KB team was cleaning everyone's clock, and that was eventually shown to be a shock absorber thing (no?).

I dunno, I'm not an engine or PS guru, but it seems that keeping any advantage you can gain a secret as long as possible gives you a chance to exploit that gain.

 

[haagar]

When the bodies started getting Funny (pun intended) with one-piece front end, narrow quarters, etc., there was a lot of performance gained.

And I would think that is one of the reasons that the calculators are real high. They aren't meant for something as slippery as a pro stock car. Look at how much the wicker regulations set them back speed wise a couple of years ago.

 

[DaveRenk]

Peak HP numbers are just a part of it. The shape of the curve at peak (area under the curve) is even more important. At least it would seen so to me.

 

[nick name]

While I understand and agree with your premise, in fact the Russian language uses it's own alphabet and the vowels are quite different.

No problem on the nitpick. I'm aware that Cyrillic has many differences and should have picked a different language. As long as we're playing that game, it's "knew" not "new that Morgan's advantage..."

There's a huge difference, though. You buy thousands of parts from hundreds of vendors that all need to be precisely the same measurement to work effectively.

There's no such situation in horsepower measurements, is there? I'm not aware of a situation where anyone wants/needs to compare or utilize horsepower numbers between each other, only relative to their own system. Does this change add HP to our setup or not? That's a self-relative comparison, and I don't need to compare/synch with others do I?

Of course the situation exists in horsepower measurement, and it couldn't be much more important!

Have you ever seen the quotes such as "It looked great on the dyno, but our other piece is quicker", or the converse "This engine's just really sweet; it doesn't show it at the shop but it's the one we count on."

Don't you think the engine shops would desperately like to know WHY such things happen? That the bullet that looked good on the dyno simply fell towards the upper end of the variation?

Trust me, there's not a pro stock engine builder I've ever talked to that wouldn't give an important piece of his body to be able to nail down why one piece is better than its brethren.

Because that way, EVERY piece is a winner. I've been out of the business for a while but have the feeling that the variation between good engines and turds is much less these days. Even so, considering the cost of the parts and man hours going into an engine the need for accurate data is crucial.

 

[rickb]

Well atleats Pro-Stock and Pro-Mod both run 1320 feet which is where drag racing has been for along time. The same can't be said for the stupid fuel cars. So whether you are a fan of PM or PS at least the records, et's and speeds still meen something!

 

[Reese]

Armand,

At least, you have some options; you can sell the 'Glide, take the money and put it towards a Billy Lynn (Searcy, Arkansas) TH-metric 200, and get rid of that horsepower-accumulating chassis and put that 283 into something that doesn't carry all that HP your friend keeps earning, for you.
Bill, in Conway, Arkansas

You are right about the new Challengers and Mustangs, there is no telling how long it will before they get factored correctly to bring them down to earth. Also my favorites cars are the 67-69 Camaros(would have built one if I could have found one for a good price).
You are right, I will sell the glide and get a 3 speed(Billy builds some bad a$$ 200's). But it don't make a difference what body style gets horsepower for the 283, I get hit too. I am building a 1985 Camaro, the car that's getting us hit is not a Camaro. I don't fault the guy at all, he builds and sells parts for 283 motors that I will purchase from him. You know as well as I do that superstock and stock is turning into 1000' racing so they don't get hit. I admire racers that runs it all out knowing they gonna get blasted on the internet. But the Mustangs and Challengers, they gonna kill the old cars we like so much.

 

[haagar]

A couple of years ago, the KB team was cleaning everyone's clock, and that was eventually shown to be a shock absorber thing (no?).

That seemed to throw them off a little for a race or two, but I don't really recall it having a huge impact.

Have you ever seen the quotes such as "It looked great on the dyno, but our other piece is quicker", or the converse "This engine's just really sweet; it doesn't show it at the shop but it's the one we count on."

Heck if those quotes weren't true everyone could just show up with dyno sheets every week (I know that chassis is a huge part of it too).

 

[Bill]

But, when it's all said and done, simply telling a bunch of keyboard jockeys a ballpark figure on your dyno horsepower to satisfy their curiosity, isn't going to get your Pro Stocker outrun, next week.... Especially, since everybody is so close...

I think it's silly...

 

[Bob]

But, when it's all said and done, simply telling a bunch of keyboard jockeys a ballpark figure on your dyno horsepower to satisfy their curiosity, isn't going to get your Pro Stocker outrun, next week.... Especially, since everybody is so close...

I think it's silly...

Sorry Bill, I let my silly curiosity get the better of me
My main intent of this post, was to bring up quotes from an older issue of ND concerning predictions from the players at the time, on what they thought would take to do these speeds. If memory serves me, most said it would never happen, I could give an Arkansas razor backs ass, just what their actual numbers are.
So apparently no one has any of these old issues, or are more interested in minutae as it concerns diving protocol. I get it. Maybe I can find a site that is more interested in drag racing. (kinda like this one was at one time 8 or nine years ago.)