Raconteur
Nitro Member
Vince, crew chief changes have been happening quietly in the NHRA Heritage and IHRA funny car ranks for years.
Another Crew Chief Change (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Paul
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Vince, crew chief changes have been happening quietly in the NHRA Heritage and IHRA funny car ranks for years.
mick
Nitro Member
and if i found myself in a room with tony and ron and a case of cold beer and i had to select only one of them to drink
the beer with, the decision would take less than a second.......know what i'm sayin'?.....trophies don't mean sh*t.
Project Paladin
Nitro Member
My point being, now crew chief changes are being made public.
Force and Coil had a great run together. But Force has done well post-Coil as well. And Coil crtainly didn't get forced into retirement, he chose to. So obviously he could afford to, because of the run with Force I mentioned. I don't think it's karma so much as the cliche: nothing lasts forever. Partnerships, winning streaks, sponsorships. etc.
If you don't think the entire NHRA labor pool didn't witness and remember what happened to Coil there, then you are only kidding yourself.
IMO.
Like any business, if the owner wants that long term stability, you simply invest in your people for the long run. If you don't, you lose that loyalty, trust and security, especially after all of that "family" boasting from Force when he was the hot company to work for.
Looks like that line didn't have real and actual commitment from Force attached.
Some who have no problem discarding and replacing employees call it business. Others who take special interest in their employees security to insure their own piece of mine also call it business. Those who don't trust the security of the company they work for especially after seeing how the owner treats others, will undoubtably jump ship as soon as a more stable Or financially viable opportunity presents itself.
Call it what you want, but it is a "what goes around, comes around" thing that's now biting Force in the ass, and at the most critical and vulnerable point of his entire career.
IMO.
Like any business, if the owner wants that long term stability, you simply invest in your people for the long run. If you don't, you lose that loyalty, trust and security, especially after all of that "family" boasting from Force when he was the hot company to work for.
Looks like that line didn't have real and actual commitment from Force attached.
Some who have no problem discarding and replacing employees call it business. Others who take special interest in their employees security to insure their own piece of mine also call it business. Those who don't trust the security of the company they work for especially after seeing how the owner treats others, will undoubtably jump ship as soon as a more stable Or financially viable opportunity presents itself.
Call it what you want, but it is a "what goes around, comes around" thing that's now biting Force in the ass, and at the most critical and vulnerable point of his entire career.
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Larry
Nitro Member
Yep makes you wonder . Jon on the other hand might seal the deal .
parrotwhisperer
Nitro Member
For years and years Coil was John's "partner". Part of the family. Couldn't do it without him. We are a team. Built it all together. Yada Yada Yada. Then, after twenty five years of it all being "partners" that were to share what they built together equally (but no written contract), John became a rock star and Coil became an employee - and an employee with a pay cut. Does anyone really wonder why he left?
Now times are tough again. More pay cuts, less people, same work to be done.
After last time the logic now seems to be cut their pay, see who is left, build back smaller from there. The ones with hard feelings are gone without a cat fight.
I to wonder why the Don does not do everything he can with his best a brightest to get NAPA a championship. Rick Hendrick and Jr just got them one with a very talented eighteen year old kid. NAPA has invested a LOT in DSR and THEY deserve a championship.
Now times are tough again. More pay cuts, less people, same work to be done.
After last time the logic now seems to be cut their pay, see who is left, build back smaller from there. The ones with hard feelings are gone without a cat fight.
I to wonder why the Don does not do everything he can with his best a brightest to get NAPA a championship. Rick Hendrick and Jr just got them one with a very talented eighteen year old kid. NAPA has invested a LOT in DSR and THEY deserve a championship.
George you make valid points. But without really knowing all facts, such as budgets, sponsorships, etc, combined with egos, we can only speculate and debate forever. And as far as championships go, I think Tony recently said, nobody "deserves" a championship, to which I agree. Although I still think I deserve a fuel ride...
I seem to remember a massive crew chief and crew change a few years back. Isn't that how Capps get Tobler from Beckman? Wasn't Beckman/Tobler the hot car at the time, and didn't Don make that move to improve NAPA's chances? My memory is getting bad and I may be wrong but that's my recollection.
I think that was when Tim Richards quit because he didn't want to test and Ron's team had no crew chief. Don moved Tobler over to the team fully funded by a partner, Beckman's car was being funded partially by Don that year. Makes complete sense to do what he did and to take care of your partners, even though Todd Smith and Beckman got hot at the end of the year and won the title. Sounds like next year Jack is completely funded, which is a spot he hasn't been in a long time.
I was NITRO BREATH
Nitro Member
George you must live in shangra-la. Where everyone loves their fellow man more than themselves. On this planet people ,or in this case employees, look out for themselves. And bosses do the same. I have had people work for me for 15 and then quit. they were treated right and for the most part enjoyed the job and me. But its a business and i was the boss so there were times when i pissed them off cause clients had to be satisfied so we could make the payroll. Same thing applies to force and coil. 26 years is a long time to work together and force had to float the boat. Coil had enough. Happens all the time. Youre spinning an elaborate tale based in fantasy.
I'm an employer.
I've made every mistake imaginable, but the one thing I have learned over the years is the simple fact that when it comes to staying competitive, maintaining and retaining productive employees trumps everything, and happy and secure employees make productive employees.
My job is to be the glue that keeps everyone working as a machine. I'm the person who sets the feel of our business.
I take care of those who take care of me, and I'm serious about making them feel secure. Nobody wants to go to bed wondering if their job is in jeopardy, or if they are going to be replaced when they get older. Does anyone here enjoy the feeling of insecurity??
That's when doubt creeps in and they go looking for something safer, something elsewhere... Like maybe DSR.
I currently have about 49 people working for me, and most for multiple years. By having a solid and experienced group, I live without stress. I vacation when I want, I have a solid income, and I don't have a care in the world. I could make a TON more money by simply firing them all, start fresh, and eliminate benefits and payroll. I could save money be not giving yearly raises or bonuses. I choose to do it because if I do, I get their best and I make more money for everyone involved.
Pay cuts DESTROY morale and security. IMHO, it's the worst thing you can do to your business. Not making enough money? Point the finger at the man in the mirror, he's the one who isn't doing his job and he takes the first and only cut.
I feel responsible for my people, and their families, and I do my part. It feels great to know that I get that same respect in return, and I sleep like a baby at night knowing that this is my corner of the world. Again, it's a choice one makes.
So, the dog eat dog world is for dogs. Treat others like dogs, expect to get bitten. It's a simple choice, invest in security and performance, or save a few bucks and return to the hot seat.
I've made every mistake imaginable, but the one thing I have learned over the years is the simple fact that when it comes to staying competitive, maintaining and retaining productive employees trumps everything, and happy and secure employees make productive employees.
My job is to be the glue that keeps everyone working as a machine. I'm the person who sets the feel of our business.
I take care of those who take care of me, and I'm serious about making them feel secure. Nobody wants to go to bed wondering if their job is in jeopardy, or if they are going to be replaced when they get older. Does anyone here enjoy the feeling of insecurity??
That's when doubt creeps in and they go looking for something safer, something elsewhere... Like maybe DSR.
I currently have about 49 people working for me, and most for multiple years. By having a solid and experienced group, I live without stress. I vacation when I want, I have a solid income, and I don't have a care in the world. I could make a TON more money by simply firing them all, start fresh, and eliminate benefits and payroll. I could save money be not giving yearly raises or bonuses. I choose to do it because if I do, I get their best and I make more money for everyone involved.
Pay cuts DESTROY morale and security. IMHO, it's the worst thing you can do to your business. Not making enough money? Point the finger at the man in the mirror, he's the one who isn't doing his job and he takes the first and only cut.
I feel responsible for my people, and their families, and I do my part. It feels great to know that I get that same respect in return, and I sleep like a baby at night knowing that this is my corner of the world. Again, it's a choice one makes.
So, the dog eat dog world is for dogs. Treat others like dogs, expect to get bitten. It's a simple choice, invest in security and performance, or save a few bucks and return to the hot seat.
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George, I too agree that base pay cuts are absolutely taboo ... incentive comp can come and go, but the base has to stay/rise with the cost of living. You have enough employees that there is no way all of them are superstars. I know you feel strongly about your employees, but do you honest rate all of them as "top of the heap" .... or is it more like 1/3?
I'm a small partner in a very large organization ... our HR forces a distribution of 20% great, 30% almost great, and 50% good (those meeting "not good" status are supposed to be fired as soon as they are identified). By design we operate on at least 25% annual turnover (obviously this is almost all voluntary, with many going to clients), and it is my belief that fully 1/3 of our people meet the "great" qualification, but I have to play the hand I'm dealt. So while I agree with you for roughly 1/2 of my employees (in a very upperwardly mobile workforce), I don't see how you can have a non rapidly growing headcount and treat 100% of them like kings/queens.
I'm a small partner in a very large organization ... our HR forces a distribution of 20% great, 30% almost great, and 50% good (those meeting "not good" status are supposed to be fired as soon as they are identified). By design we operate on at least 25% annual turnover (obviously this is almost all voluntary, with many going to clients), and it is my belief that fully 1/3 of our people meet the "great" qualification, but I have to play the hand I'm dealt. So while I agree with you for roughly 1/2 of my employees (in a very upperwardly mobile workforce), I don't see how you can have a non rapidly growing headcount and treat 100% of them like kings/queens.
After rereading my post, I see what you mean. I get wordy as hell sometimes and I lose my point..
Remember, this is just my take from my little corner of the world.
Of course not all are superstars.
And I would say that your ratios are pretty accurate. But I try to keep my full time people fairly compensated, and feeling secure. We all know it's a dance of keeping as much in our pockets while keeping our employees one step ahead of market wage. .I'm sorry if I implied otherwise, but employee comfort is very important to me. I want them to be as happy as all get out..My great ones are the ones with the least issues and can problem solve. I'm pretty free with the wages and bonuses. They make my life a lot easier. Others have issues that I choose to deal with because the positives outweigh the negatives, and are able to keep the place moving.. The rest I have no problem letting go, and I usually my good employees target and toss them before I do... Those who want a long term job clearly see the two sides of our coin.
My store manager came from a super market where everyday was another threat of job security as the sales numbers fluxed. I learned a lot just watching him act like a scared rabbit, and wanting to remove that feeling.
My deal is for him to not worry about numbers, just do his deal at 100%, and the numbers fall on me. After 12 years, he still doesn't know what to make of it.. The dude is just waiting for the other shoe to drop, and has a hard time realizing that there isn't a first shoe.
Anyway..
In relation to this thread and JFR's case, and whose business makes mine look like a house fly on an elephants ass, the same still holds true. You cut your best people and everyone takes a mental note for future reference. With that comes a total lack of trust in security. I think anyone out there who saw what happened to Coil could have easily forecasted this talent drain when the money started to dry up again.
I don't feel the least bit sorry for him because he did it to himself.
Remember, this is just my take from my little corner of the world.
Of course not all are superstars.
And I would say that your ratios are pretty accurate. But I try to keep my full time people fairly compensated, and feeling secure. We all know it's a dance of keeping as much in our pockets while keeping our employees one step ahead of market wage. .I'm sorry if I implied otherwise, but employee comfort is very important to me. I want them to be as happy as all get out..My great ones are the ones with the least issues and can problem solve. I'm pretty free with the wages and bonuses. They make my life a lot easier. Others have issues that I choose to deal with because the positives outweigh the negatives, and are able to keep the place moving.. The rest I have no problem letting go, and I usually my good employees target and toss them before I do... Those who want a long term job clearly see the two sides of our coin.
My store manager came from a super market where everyday was another threat of job security as the sales numbers fluxed. I learned a lot just watching him act like a scared rabbit, and wanting to remove that feeling.
My deal is for him to not worry about numbers, just do his deal at 100%, and the numbers fall on me. After 12 years, he still doesn't know what to make of it.. The dude is just waiting for the other shoe to drop, and has a hard time realizing that there isn't a first shoe.
Anyway..
In relation to this thread and JFR's case, and whose business makes mine look like a house fly on an elephants ass, the same still holds true. You cut your best people and everyone takes a mental note for future reference. With that comes a total lack of trust in security. I think anyone out there who saw what happened to Coil could have easily forecasted this talent drain when the money started to dry up again.
I don't feel the least bit sorry for him because he did it to himself.
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parrotwhisperer
Nitro Member
I too have had many employees in my businesses. My largest number was 48. I agree with everything said here by all employers. We all know the truths of working with and retaining good employees even if Obama has no clue or it does not serve his political agenda to understand the employer/employee relationship. Key employees are essential to most businesses. It would be very hard and maybe impossible for some businesses to survive without them. There were times when my key people made more money than I did and I do not think that is unusual.
In the case of Force and Coil we are not comparing apples to apples though. Their deal went more like this: When John "hired" Coil he did not have any money to pay him. Coil had to make the parts John had work to make the money to keep going. The assets were not great but Coil made it work well enough to get by. As they built the "business" they were partners. Force always said they were partners because he was smart enough to know he was toast without Coil. Amos Satterly and others had not been able to get Force's deal on its feet. Coil did. All of Coil's experience had been getting the most out of what he had and keeping it going.
Force was like a business guy with a dream to build a technology company but with no expertise to structure it, develop a smart business plan and make it work. Force had a line of bull to feed the bank to borrow a little money now and again or to get a little sponsorship money after Coil reached a mile stone. Coil knew how to use what little money and parts they had to get to the next step. On they went. On a little at a time. After years of struggle they got big. They were partners. Successful. All grins. John always said they were partners and Coil agreed. The deal could not survive without the talents of both of them and it went on to great success, championships, domination. That is not like any of the businesses discussed above and it is not like DSR or any of the other modern day professional teams that I am aware of. There may be many sportsman teams that resemble this structure.
Coil did not have a contract or a partnership agreement and after 25 years he suddenly found out years and years of partnership talk were just bull and he owned half of nothing. John said he thought he had always treated Coil good. Really? Neither of the two started out as a contract law professionals, but clearly Coil got nothing he was promised as a partner and the cut in pay was the last insult. He has not spoken with Force since. In most states a public verbal contract is, in fact, a contract but that is another kettle of fish.
When Zippy went to Force he ate the mushrooms too. Not sure he can go back to DSR. Maybe so. Maybe not. Maybe he should have talked with Tony P first.
In the case of Force and Coil we are not comparing apples to apples though. Their deal went more like this: When John "hired" Coil he did not have any money to pay him. Coil had to make the parts John had work to make the money to keep going. The assets were not great but Coil made it work well enough to get by. As they built the "business" they were partners. Force always said they were partners because he was smart enough to know he was toast without Coil. Amos Satterly and others had not been able to get Force's deal on its feet. Coil did. All of Coil's experience had been getting the most out of what he had and keeping it going.
Force was like a business guy with a dream to build a technology company but with no expertise to structure it, develop a smart business plan and make it work. Force had a line of bull to feed the bank to borrow a little money now and again or to get a little sponsorship money after Coil reached a mile stone. Coil knew how to use what little money and parts they had to get to the next step. On they went. On a little at a time. After years of struggle they got big. They were partners. Successful. All grins. John always said they were partners and Coil agreed. The deal could not survive without the talents of both of them and it went on to great success, championships, domination. That is not like any of the businesses discussed above and it is not like DSR or any of the other modern day professional teams that I am aware of. There may be many sportsman teams that resemble this structure.
Coil did not have a contract or a partnership agreement and after 25 years he suddenly found out years and years of partnership talk were just bull and he owned half of nothing. John said he thought he had always treated Coil good. Really? Neither of the two started out as a contract law professionals, but clearly Coil got nothing he was promised as a partner and the cut in pay was the last insult. He has not spoken with Force since. In most states a public verbal contract is, in fact, a contract but that is another kettle of fish.
When Zippy went to Force he ate the mushrooms too. Not sure he can go back to DSR. Maybe so. Maybe not. Maybe he should have talked with Tony P first.
