Whats up with GM????

[merc49]

Ask some of the "tuner" crowd how hard it is to work on the newer cars. They are a new segment of the old school hot rodders, and they do some real magic on a 4cylinder engine that's loaded with electronics right from the factory. Used to be hot rodding was a couple groups, the rods and the customs. Now the hobby/sport has more arms than an octopus. There's the traditional rods and customs, then there's the street machine guys, the foreign car tuners, the pickup segment, the Latinos and their great rides, and many many more. Don't forget the so-called rat rodders (and yes, I know some of them HATE that term). These are the true recyclers in hot rodding. They let no part go to waste, and will take on the worst rust bucket junk body and turn it into a jewel.

And one more thing: with some diligent web-surfing you can find message boards for all of these groups and many more you never imagined existed. Ask Zappy, there was a site for the HHR crowd even before the first HHR hit the dealerships!

One more thing, in the older days, during the birth of drag racing, and oval stock car racing, it was all hot rodding. And it still is. I believe it always will be. (And there was no factory help back then. No one needed it.)

 

[Pat]

From what I understand, the GM teams were told last week that there will be no help coming from GM. No blocks, no heads, no courtesy cars, no bodies, no money.....nothing! If you want it, you have to buy it. This is really going to hurt the small teams, and if you don't think so, just price out some DRCE parts or a race ready Impala F/C body. Just another sign of the times!

Pat

 

[chop]

From what I understand, the GM teams were told last week that there will be no help coming from GM. No blocks, no heads, no courtesy cars, no bodies, no money.....nothing! If you want it, you have to buy it. This is really going to hurt the small teams, and if you don't think so, just price out some DRCE parts or a race ready Impala F/C body. Just another sign of the times!

Pat

I had been hearing the same thing but didn't won't to say anything until I heard it somewhere else. I talked to WJ @ Charlotte and he thought that would be the case. He's always said he wouldn't race on his dime,so we'll see how it shakes out for WJ Ent.

 

[Paul]

I had been hearing the same thing but didn't won't to say anything until I heard it somewhere else. I talked to WJ @ Charlotte and he thought that would be the case. He's always said he wouldn't race on his dime,so we'll see how it shakes out for WJ Ent.

Mike, are you saying both WJ and KJ are looking for sponsors next year? That would surely suck.

 

[chop]

Mike, are you saying both WJ and KJ are looking for sponsors next year? That would surely suck.

I haven't seen or been told anything officially and was responding to Pat's post about it but I do not doubt it @ all. I do not know if the GM pull out will affect KJ's A-C Delco deal or not,time will tell. Yes,if true,that sucks big time and the P/S field might just get smaller.

 

[Nunz]

I'm a huge fan of WJ/KJ, and I really hope they aren't parked. Having said that, they'll never starve, imagine how well they would do if they turned their attention toward customer engines, and I don't mean just PS. But, I prefer to see them continue to race PS for themselves.

 

[Bobby Bennett]

If you look at our Jim Yates 400 story, I think we can start to gain a feel of who will remain if GM pulls back or Heaven forbid pulls out.

Drag Racing Internet Magazine - Competition Plus.com - YATES REFLECTS ON 400

 

[kountryboy2]

They are no more or less complicated than Toyotas or BMWs or VWs ... yet their sales are still expanding.

The bottom line is that the big 3 build CRAP cars that NOBODY wants, so nobody buys them. If not for the F150, Ford would have been dead long ago. If not for SUVs and fleet purchases GM would have been dead long ago. If not for a government bailout back in the day and Daimler, Chrysler would have been dead long ago. The only good cars built in America, the average consumer can't afford (Vette, Viper, etc).

I travel for a living, and I am in a rental car EVERY week ... 90% of the time it is an American car (Impala, PT Cruiser, G6 and Fusion are the most common) and EVERY week when I get home, I get into my VW Jetta and I am like "Ahhhhh ... good to be home".

PS I am glad the cars have gotten too technical for the average mechanic. It normally means the car is more reliable for a longer period of time. Fuel Injection, distributorless ignitions, maintenance free batteries, synthetic oil and the like mean I spend more time driving my car and less time working on it.

LOL@loving a vw jetta! Chris if what you type is true,than you are one of the few that really likes there jetta. Maybe I should put you in touch with the vw dealer in IL. They will tell you a different story!

 

[kountryboy2]

I had been hearing the same thing but didn't won't to say anything until I heard it somewhere else. I talked to WJ @ Charlotte and he thought that would be the case. He's always said he wouldn't race on his dime,so we'll see how it shakes out for WJ Ent.

Hi Mike,
Years ago I asked Jenkins why he wasn't fielding a prostocker anymore. His answer was the same as Warren's. I'm not racing on my dime.

2009 will be a very interesting year in auto racing.

 

[Nick Name]

The factorys were in a tough spot. They were forced to sponsor cars that had nothing to do with anything they sell, in order to get on TV. (Pro stock and funnycar)

I am sure if the people who race cars that you can buy, got TV time, the factories would be involved, but who would want to watch that.

Tough deal. I don't see them having any choice but to leave.

Jay

 

[Baron]

The NHRA should be proactive here bringing in all the interested parties - owners, racers, parts suppliers, sponsors, and manufacturers. Develop a rules package to reduce costs, keep a closer to stock appearance and, ideally, include Camaros, Mustangs, and Challengers. The Pontiac GXP and some foreign entries might be included, subject to the new rules. Fuel injection should be considered. An appropriate phase out of the current rules must be put in place to allow current teams to amortize costs and equipment.
I certainly don't know what the ideal setup would be, but with Warren Johnson in the room we'd find out soon enough!
Cheers,
Ed
P.S. I'd like to see ProStock, ProStock Motorcycle and ProMod added to the Lucas Oil Series with each class being highlighted once or twice in each Division on a rotating basis.

 

[yoda]

The NHRA should be proactive here bringing in all the interested parties - owners, racers, parts suppliers, sponsors, and manufacturers. Develop a rules package to reduce costs, keep a closer to stock appearance and, ideally, include Camaros, Mustangs, and Challengers. The Pontiac GXP and some foreign entries might be included, subject to the new rules. Fuel injection should be considered. An appropriate phase out of the current rules must be put in place to allow current teams to amortize costs and equipment.
I certainly don't know what the ideal setup would be, but with Warren Johnson in the room we'd find out soon enough!
Cheers,
Ed
P.S. I'd like to see ProStock, ProStock Motorcycle and ProMod added to the Lucas Oil Series with each class being highlighted once or twice in each Division on a rotating basis.

FI is applicable in classes that are deserving for that system- what aspect of putting that kind of fuel distribution on a Pro Stock car would make it helpful for anyone??

Companies like BG and the other carb companies would go through huge expense to drop/reduce a product line, teams would encounter great expense in R&D and testing and the fuel systems coming out of Detroit would have as much similarities with a "gas flopper" D Karl..) as any other part of those cars- read: not much...

 

[Toby]

Apparently you have never priced out a pair of the trick of the week carburetors. There are several EFI suppliers that would perform greatly in PS.

Do you think carbs make it helpful for GM to consider remaining in drag racing? The technology developed with GM money in drag racing practically has no cross-over into the vehicles they sell. Except for that nifty new door handle of the Hass car. Just kidding.

Here is a scenario to think about. GM and Dodge leave drag racing after 08. Ford follows soon. NHRA car counts start to fall. After a year or two, Honda, Toyota etc approaches NHRA with an offer to support their PS series for rule considerations. You could see Pro Stock either diappear, turn into an Import class or be merged in a form with PM.

FI is applicable in classes that are deserving for that system- what aspect of putting that kind of fuel distribution on a Pro Stock car would make it helpful for anyone??

Companies like BG and the other carb companies would go through huge expense to drop/reduce a product line, teams would encounter great expense in R&D and testing and the fuel systems coming out of Detroit would have as much similarities with a "gas flopper" D Karl..) as any other part of those cars- read: not much...

 

[vegasnitro]

LOL@loving a vw jetta! Chris if what you type is true,than you are one of the few that really likes there jetta. Maybe I should put you in touch with the vw dealer in IL. They will tell you a different story!

I wouldn't say I love my Jetta, but after driving an Impala or Fusion all week, I can appreciate my Jetta!

And whoever said my Jetta was more expensive than a comparable American car is dead-stone wrong. I have a 5 speed, 1.8L turbo, upgraded stereo and interior. You would be hard pressed to get a Cobalt or Focus for what I paid for the Jetta. You probably could get a Cobalt or Focus, but is not going to be comparable in amenity, fun, technology, comfort nor resale. And a Cobalt/Focus certainly won't have 180HP and get 30MPG highway.

And just to show I am not a hard-hearted anti-domestic car guy, I am in the market for a new car, and 2 American cars made the cut. A used 05/06 Vette (natch) or a new Pontiac G8 GT/GXP (OK ... so technically it's Australian).

 

[Nick Name]

Chris;
Get the vette. You won't be sorry.

Jay

 

[yoda]

Apparently you have never priced out a pair of the trick of the week carburetors. There are several EFI suppliers that would perform greatly in PS.

Toby, I am pretty sure that pricing out a true pair of trick-of-the-week carbs is above my security clearance level...

But, saying that, I'm not sure an EFI unit supplied by one of the Big 3 would match what the carbs can do, and it would ultimately fall back into the hands of the aftermarket anyway... Further eliminating Factory participation.

Pro drag racing has gotten so far away from the Detroit teet (probably for the best) that the BEST thing Detriot could do IS sponsor the teams to take advantage of the brand loyalty that runs strongly through the sport- the extent of corporate involvement can be as simple as a badge on the hood, a sticker on the fender and a decent annual budget. Everything else can be farmed out to those that know how to do race parts best.

 

[vegasnitro]

Chris;
Get the vette. You won't be sorry.

Jay

I had a '96 C4 w/ LT4 and a 6 Speed that I absolutely LOVED. Fiance' at the time hated it ... that's how I wound up in a Jetta. Valuable lesson learned ...

With the economy as bad as it is ... the lots in Vegas are suddenly flooded with quality used Vettes up to and including Z06's. Part of me thinks if I wait a couple more months, I might be able to absolutely steal one.

EDIT: found a pic of my old Vette: (click for larger)

 

[Toby]

There is not a carburetor in the world that can do what the simplest EFI system will do. I see alot of data, including O2 data from quite a few PS teams at every national event race. I have yet to find a set that will keep an A/F ratio at a desired value +/- 1%. It is pretty impressive what teams do with a simple venturi device, yet they are still stoneage.

Toby, I am pretty sure that pricing out a true pair of trick-of-the-week carbs is above my security clearance level...

But, saying that, I'm not sure an EFI unit supplied by one of the Big 3 would match what the carbs can do, and it would ultimately fall back into the hands of the aftermarket anyway... Further eliminating Factory participation.

Pro drag racing has gotten so far away from the Detroit teet (probably for the best) that the BEST thing Detriot could do IS sponsor the teams to take advantage of the brand loyalty that runs strongly through the sport- the extent of corporate involvement can be as simple as a badge on the hood, a sticker on the fender and a decent annual budget. Everything else can be farmed out to those that know how to do race parts best.

 

[suckeez azz]

Apparently you have never priced out a pair of the trick of the week carburetors. There are several EFI suppliers that would perform greatly in PS.

Do you think carbs make it helpful for GM to consider remaining in drag racing? The technology developed with GM money in drag racing practically has no cross-over into the vehicles they sell. Except for that nifty new door handle of the Hass car. Just kidding.

Here is a scenario to think about. GM and Dodge leave drag racing after 08. Ford follows soon. NHRA car counts start to fall. After a year or two, Honda, Toyota etc approaches NHRA with an offer to support their PS series for rule considerations. You could see Pro Stock either diappear, turn into an Import class or be merged in a form with PM.

You hit the nail on the head with this. IMO, they are getting more out of their sport compact program that applies directly to their product line than pro stock. We have pushed the ecotec motor up to 1400 ish HP (900 in my street car) and that has led to changes that are found in the new Cobalt SS, Soltice GXP, Etc. Those cars now run the Saab head, which was first utilized on our engines. The new cobalts are also now turbocharged. Alot of what we did directly impacted these models.

 

[Baron]

Whoa! I just said fuel injection should be considered. I also advocate forecasting rules changes so that suppliers and racers can amortize their current investments.
I just bought a Pontiac Solstice GXP and I enjoy it very much. So make me a GM guy, if you wish. Still, I can't and won't deny that GM didn't plan far enough ahead nor did it keep enough options open. They can and do build some great cars. They must always have the flexibility to move with the markets. (By the bye, the Japanese manufacturers were in the same boat at one point until the gas shortages in the Seventies dumped an entire market in their lap and they were ready with good products).
My thought is, simply, that we must look out to the horizon and imagine what is beyond it.
At the dawn of the last century auto "manufacturers" were bicycle shops and tinkerers. There was no Ford Motor Company, Walter P, Chrysler was a young man working in the railroad business, GM didn't exist, David Buick was still making plumbing fixtures, and Charles W. Nash was stuffing seats with horsehair at the Dort Carriage Works. Things change. We need to have a new and flexible business model.
I don't know the answers. I do know that with business people of the caliber of Don Schumacher, Joe Amato, and Kenny Bernstein this sport has the people who do know the answers. You can add your own list of savvy guys from the Kallittas to Ken Black. I just want to see the NHRA have the processes in place that will allow them to act and not just react.
Action means Darrell and Eric and Scott die of old age surrounded by their grandchildren. Reaction means 1000' "drag racing."
I want the best for my sport and I want my grandchildren to enjoy it, too.
Cheers,
Ed