Top Fuel Dragster evolution. Morphing Top Fuel and F1 (9 Viewers)

[none]

You can do that without blowers.

Are you still All-In?
Alan

 

[Nitro Bass!]

You can do that without blowers.

Are you still All-In?
Alan

Why do it without blowers if you don't have to? So maybe they're running 4.70s or 4.60s instead of 3.60s. What's the difference if the show, the sound, and the look are still incredible?

As I've said before, I'm a big fan of A/Fuel, but you can't compare the visceral experience of Top Fuel to A/Fuel. It's not just about the ETs. In fact, I think it's less about the ETs and more about the experience—the ground shaking, the noise, the flames, the smell of nitro, and everything that makes Top Fuel unlike anything else in motorsports.

When most of us fell in love with nitro drag racing, 4.80s were science fiction. Nobody cared that they weren't running 3.60s because the cars looked and sounded absolutely amazing. That's what made us fans in the first place.

 

[twostep]

For those who support slowing the cars, a bigger variety of cars you can actually identify,, a return to 1320 and full fields with all the sights and sounds of current big-boy supercharged nitro racing there's already a class for that. AA/NFC. I'd rather watch this 24-car qualifier at California's Famoso track than a dozen or so of the current cars ANY day.

 

[none]

Why do it without blowers if you don't have to? So maybe they're running 4.70s or 4.60s instead of 3.60s. What's the difference if the show, the sound, and the look are still incredible?

As I've said before, I'm a big fan of A/Fuel, but you can't compare the visceral experience of Top Fuel to A/Fuel. It's not just about the ETs. In fact, I think it's less about the ETs and more about the experience—the ground shaking, the noise, the flames, the smell of nitro, and everything that makes Top Fuel unlike anything else in motorsports.

When most of us fell in love with nitro drag racing, 4.80s were science fiction. Nobody cared that they weren't running 3.60s because the cars looked and sounded absolutely amazing. That's what made us fans in the first place.

Why run a blower if you don't have to?

You have a rose colored memory. The cars were not louder in 1990 than they are now. The power level of an injected car today is equal to or greater than a 1990 blown car and so is the noise level. (If you give them 500 CI). I remember seeing Dick LaHaie run 5.12 in testing at Phoenix and thinking: "Holy Crap! That's Flying!" I remember Force running an unheard of 5.34 around the same time and being in awe. Today those numbers would induce a yawn.

I fell in love with Drag Racing because I was seeing things that I could barely comprehend. I love it today because that it still the case. If you turn the power level back 30 years, that will no longer be true.

Edit: That may sound harsher than intended. I'm typing in a conversational tone.

Alan

 

[none]

For those who support slowing the cars, a bigger variety of cars you can actually identify,, a return to 1320 and full fields with all the sights and sounds of current big-boy supercharged nitro racing there's already a class for that. AA/NFC. I'd rather watch this 24-car qualifier at California's Famoso track than a dozen or so of the current cars ANY day.

And this is the beauty of Drag Racing. What Brian is looking for already exists.
Drag Racing has always had something for everyone.

Alan

 

[sammi]

Just like you can't turn the clock back and say the right words with the girl you were crazy for in the day, you can't turn the clock back in drag racing. We will continue down this path until we or the sport says uncle and gives up.

 

[twostep]

Just like you can't turn the clock back and say the right words with the girl you were crazy for in the day, you can't turn the clock back in drag racing. We will continue down this path until we or the sport says uncle and gives up.

This thread started as how a fuel dragster might benefit from F1 influence, ideas that are quite interesting but probably won't happen anytime soon. But that doesn't mean that F1 itself can't benefit the future of NHRA. F1, infinitely more expensive than competing in the NHRA pro classes, has an 800 million strong fan base...its popularity is growing by leaps and bounds....and here's why. It's an AI reply but it makes sense at least for F1. Could some of these marketing ideas be implemented into NHRA's plans for the future? F1 has figured out how to draw youth into the sport, something drag racing desperately needs.

They're going to have to, because arguing over fuel pumps and track length isn't going to do a thing to save the sport going forward. Those are simply details. NHRA needs a master plan. See what you think.

Google Search

 

[Nitro Bass!]

I get all of that. Let's look at it from a practical, non-emotional perspective and boil it down to three main points.

1. The cost of competing at the highest level is staggering.

The return on investment is virtually nonexistent. For most teams, there isn't a financial payoff; there's only the passion and satisfaction of running a nitro car while it consumes every dollar you have. If you're backed by deep pockets, that's one thing. For everyone else, it's a completely different reality.

Those rising costs are keeping fields short. We're seeing fewer full qualifying fields, no Saturday bumping, more bye runs, and too many empty lanes. That's not good for the competitors, the fans, or the sport. Add in the cost of fuel, hotels, food, and simply getting to and from the races, and it's become extremely difficult for smaller teams. Travel expenses alone can be enough to keep them from towing across the country.

2. The cars have become too fast for many of the tracks they're racing on.

At 340-plus mph, we're pushing the limits of tire technology and safety. A parachute failure at 345 mph is terrifying, and it's hard to imagine insurance premiums aren't reflecting that risk.

The reality is that the performance of today's nitro cars has outgrown some of the facilities they race on. Historic tracks like Pomona have relatively short shutdown areas compared to the speeds these cars now achieve. Do I personally want to see the cars slow down? No. But it's a reality that has to be dealt with when these cars are going over 300 mph in just 660 feet on tracks that were built at a time when 345 mph wasn't even considered remotely possible.

3. We no longer live in a car culture.

Those days are largely behind us. The hardcore fan base of drag racing is aging and dying off, much like what I've seen happen in the music industry. It's simply part of life. Every industry has to adapt as the world changes.

The organizations and people who evolve survive, and often thrive. Those who refuse to adapt get left behind.

I'm not ready to say "uncle" and give up on drag racing. Not even close.

So maybe the better way to approach this isn't simply asking whether we should slow the cars down. Maybe the goal should be finding ways to lower the cost of competing at the highest level so more people can afford to race. More competitive teams mean fuller fields, Saturday bumping returns, and a healthier sport.

That leads to another idea, and the whole point of a discussion like this is to throw ideas out there.

If the answer isn't slowing the fastest cars any further, what if we expanded the classes and improved the overall show?

What if there were Top Fuel 1 and Top Fuel 2, along with Funny Car 1 and Funny Car 2?

• TF1/FC1 would remain the elite, quickest, fastest category.
• TF2/FC2 would give the next tier of teams a place to compete at a lower operating cost while still racing nitro cars in front of national-event crowds.

Why not also bring nostalgia Funny Cars and front-engine Top Fuel dragsters into NHRA national events? Put more nitro cars on the property, create more action throughout the weekend, and give fans a bigger show while providing additional opportunities for racers with limited budgets. A great nitro show doesn't mean every car has to set a national record on every run. Sometimes the visceral experience of nitro is enough. At least it is for me.

Do I personally want to slow the cars down? No. We all need to be shooting for the moon. The sport needs something to strive for.

That's actually why I started this thread in the first place. I'd rather see Top Fuel continue to evolve through better aerodynamics and smarter engineering than simply reducing performance.

To me, the challenge is finding the right balance:

• Lower costs so smaller teams can realistically compete.
• Maintain performance while improving safety.
• Put on a better, more entertaining show.
• Bring new fans into the sport and inject fresh energy into professional drag racing.

I think Tony Stewart coming to Top Fuel and the NHRA has been one of the best things to happen to the sport in years. There are a lot of people paying attention now who never took drag racing seriously before, and that's exactly what professional drag racing needs.

Now the challenge is figuring out how to keep those new fans while making it possible for more teams to compete. If we can solve that equation, I think the future of drag racing becomes a whole lot brighter.

Maybe the answer isn't choosing between performance, safety, affordability, or entertainment. Maybe the future of drag racing depends on finding a way to have all four.

I know I probably sound like I'm all over the place, but that's really the point. That's the contradiction. That's the challenge.

It also makes me appreciate just how difficult the job is for any sanctioning body today. Trying to find the right balance between performance, safety, affordability, and putting on a great show isn't easy. But somewhere in that balance is the future of professional drag racing.

 

[Nitro Bass!]

This thread started as how a fuel dragster might benefit from F1 influence, ideas that are quite interesting but probably won't happen anytime soon. But that doesn't mean that F1 itself can't benefit the future of NHRA. F1, infinitely more expensive than competing in the NHRA pro classes, has an 800 million strong fan base...its popularity is growing by leaps and bounds....and here's why. It's an AI reply but it makes sense at least for F1. Could some of these marketing ideas be implemented into NHRA's plans for the future? F1 has figured out how to draw youth into the sport, something drag racing desperately needs.

They're going to have to, because arguing over fuel pumps and track length isn't going to do a thing to save the sport going forward. Those are simply details. NHRA needs a master plan. See what you think.

Google Search

Very cool, glad you did that.....

 

[Nitro Bass!]

Can you imagine how amazing an Imax movie would be with top fuel and funny car, especially at night?

 

[mick]

the nostalgia funny car argument does not work. we are discussing the premiere racing product that nhra offers.
the one that competes for attention against all other top tier racing products. is the product on the drag strip right now today
the best sports entertainment product that nhra is capable of for the masses?, who may otherwise use their disposable income
to attend another form of motorsports or other sport entertainment product all together? the entertainment value needs to be
good enough so the casual or new fan actually considers attending again.
the on-track product is pretty good or even really good, coming from the perspective of a casual or new fan. i think they want to know
who is driving these cars (how youth are drawn to F1). i'm not sure how you do it because (as has been discussed previously) you've got
that new or casual fan for 4-5 hours before they will leave. i wish there was more time for interactive displays between rounds,
more fan engagement kiosks so to speak.
i've always thought when you sit in the stands and stare at back of retaining wall during downtime, lined with the same sponsor signs hauled
from race to race, some are probably 20+ years old ...... wouldn't it be nice if there a scolling message board on backside of retaining wall?
you could do interactive stuff with crowd, even while PA person is talking. seat #45B wins a free something. text to this number to win something. during the races show the audience sitting near the starting line (who can't hear PA) who is on the line, where they qualified,
where they are from, advertise a drawing for something substantial, must be present to win and show ticket with matching seat number,
to be given away after the final rounds.
tony stewart is great for the nhra. maddie gordon is incredible for the nhra.
as others have mentioned, it is about attracting and holding the youth.

 

[Nitro Bass!]

the nostalgia funny car argument does not work. we are discussing the premiere racing product that nhra offers.
the one that competes for attention against all other top tier racing products. is the product on the drag strip right now today
the best sports entertainment product that nhra is capable of for the masses?, who may otherwise use their disposable income
to attend another form of motorsports or other sport entertainment product all together? the entertainment value needs to be
good enough so the casual or new fan actually considers attending again.
the on-track product is pretty good or even really good, coming from the perspective of a casual or new fan. i think they want to know
who is driving these cars (how youth are drawn to F1). i'm not sure how you do it because (as has been discussed previously) you've got
that new or casual fan for 4-5 hours before they will leave. i wish there was more time for interactive displays between rounds,
more fan engagement kiosks so to speak.
i've always thought when you sit in the stands and stare at back of retaining wall during downtime, lined with the same sponsor signs hauled
from race to race, some are probably 20+ years old ...... wouldn't it be nice if there a scolling message board on backside of retaining wall?
you could do interactive stuff with crowd, even while PA person is talking. seat #45B wins a free something. text to this number to win something. during the races show the audience sitting near the starting line (who can't hear PA) who is on the line, where they qualified,
where they are from, advertise a drawing for something substantial, must be present to win and show ticket with matching seat number,
to be given away after the final rounds.
tony stewart is great for the nhra. maddie gordon is incredible for the nhra.
as others have mentioned, it is about attracting and holding the youth.

Your post is exactly what needs to happen. Ideas. They need to come from everywhere, from everyone, and from all kinds of backgrounds so the people making the decisions at the sanctioning bodies can hear what the end users of their product actually have to say about the product they're showcasing.

None of us has all the answers, but the more ideas that are shared and discussed, the better the chances of finding solutions that strengthen the sport for the competitors, the fans, and the future of professional drag racing.

 

[Chili]

I get all of that. Let's look at it from a practical, non-emotional perspective and boil it down to three main points.

1. The cost of competing at the highest level is staggering.

The return on investment is virtually nonexistent. For most teams, there isn't a financial payoff; there's only the passion and satisfaction of running a nitro car while it consumes every dollar you have. If you're backed by deep pockets, that's one thing. For everyone else, it's a completely different reality.

Those rising costs are keeping fields short. We're seeing fewer full qualifying fields, no Saturday bumping, more bye runs, and too many empty lanes. That's not good for the competitors, the fans, or the sport. Add in the cost of fuel, hotels, food, and simply getting to and from the races, and it's become extremely difficult for smaller teams. Travel expenses alone can be enough to keep them from towing across the country.

2. The cars have become too fast for many of the tracks they're racing on.

At 340-plus mph, we're pushing the limits of tire technology and safety. A parachute failure at 345 mph is terrifying, and it's hard to imagine insurance premiums aren't reflecting that risk.

The reality is that the performance of today's nitro cars has outgrown some of the facilities they race on. Historic tracks like Pomona have relatively short shutdown areas compared to the speeds these cars now achieve. Do I personally want to see the cars slow down? No. But it's a reality that has to be dealt with when these cars are going over 300 mph in just 660 feet on tracks that were built at a time when 345 mph wasn't even considered remotely possible.

3. We no longer live in a car culture.

Those days are largely behind us. The hardcore fan base of drag racing is aging and dying off, much like what I've seen happen in the music industry. It's simply part of life. Every industry has to adapt as the world changes.

The organizations and people who evolve survive, and often thrive. Those who refuse to adapt get left behind.

I'm not ready to say "uncle" and give up on drag racing. Not even close.

So maybe the better way to approach this isn't simply asking whether we should slow the cars down. Maybe the goal should be finding ways to lower the cost of competing at the highest level so more people can afford to race. More competitive teams mean fuller fields, Saturday bumping returns, and a healthier sport.

That leads to another idea, and the whole point of a discussion like this is to throw ideas out there.

If the answer isn't slowing the fastest cars any further, what if we expanded the classes and improved the overall show?

What if there were Top Fuel 1 and Top Fuel 2, along with Funny Car 1 and Funny Car 2?

• TF1/FC1 would remain the elite, quickest, fastest category.
• TF2/FC2 would give the next tier of teams a place to compete at a lower operating cost while still racing nitro cars in front of national-event crowds.

Why not also bring nostalgia Funny Cars and front-engine Top Fuel dragsters into NHRA national events? Put more nitro cars on the property, create more action throughout the weekend, and give fans a bigger show while providing additional opportunities for racers with limited budgets. A great nitro show doesn't mean every car has to set a national record on every run. Sometimes the visceral experience of nitro is enough. At least it is for me.

Do I personally want to slow the cars down? No. We all need to be shooting for the moon. The sport needs something to strive for.

That's actually why I started this thread in the first place. I'd rather see Top Fuel continue to evolve through better aerodynamics and smarter engineering than simply reducing performance.

To me, the challenge is finding the right balance:

• Lower costs so smaller teams can realistically compete.
• Maintain performance while improving safety.
• Put on a better, more entertaining show.
• Bring new fans into the sport and inject fresh energy into professional drag racing.

I think Tony Stewart coming to Top Fuel and the NHRA has been one of the best things to happen to the sport in years. There are a lot of people paying attention now who never took drag racing seriously before, and that's exactly what professional drag racing needs.

Now the challenge is figuring out how to keep those new fans while making it possible for more teams to compete. If we can solve that equation, I think the future of drag racing becomes a whole lot brighter.

Maybe the answer isn't choosing between performance, safety, affordability, or entertainment. Maybe the future of drag racing depends on finding a way to have all four.

I know I probably sound like I'm all over the place, but that's really the point. That's the contradiction. That's the challenge.

It also makes me appreciate just how difficult the job is for any sanctioning body today. Trying to find the right balance between performance, safety, affordability, and putting on a great show isn't easy. But somewhere in that balance is the future of professional drag racing.

While the cost to compete is too high for most of us, it’s just a fraction of what is spent in the others. More than anything we need to get our sport and the stories to the public. Do that and the money would follow. F1 hit the jackpot with their reality series on Amazon.

The car culture might be why pro stock isn’t as popular as it once was but everybody loves the Nitro cars. F1 and Indy car looks like nothing on the street. Take away the nitro cars from national events and the crowd would be down 80% or more.

The biggest issue with drag racing is the downtime. As others have mentioned we need more interactive things to keep the short attention span people interested.

 

[Nitro Bass!]

While the cost to compete is too high for most of us, it’s just a fraction of what is spent in the others. More than anything we need to get our sport and the stories to the public. Do that and the money would follow. F1 hit the jackpot with their reality series on Amazon.

The car culture might be why pro stock isn’t as popular as it once was but everybody loves the Nitro cars. F1 and Indy car looks like nothing on the street. Take away the nitro cars from national events and the crowd would be down 80% or more.

The biggest issue with drag racing is the downtime. As others have mentioned we need more interactive things to keep the short attention span people interested.

100%

 

[none]

Everything Brian mentioned sounds good. How do you do it? And if you did, would it solve the problem?

Times change, when I was younger (before I was professionally involved) I would watch everything.
In 1984 I drove to Pomona, bought a ticket and sat in the stands. (Sherm Gunn ring a bell) Sunday I didn't even pay the extra $10 for the pit pass, and I watched every car go down all day. I was really into cars and while TF and FC were the fastest and loudest, PS was my favorite, Alcohol cars were awesome, and I still wanted to see the Stock and Super Stockers run.

Fans don't do that anymore. the vast majority watch the Nitro cars them leave the stands. And it's doesn't matter what's next. TAD, PS, PM? None seem to capture the fans. For a casual observer after seeing a car go 340 MPH a car going 270 is slow and not interesting.

Brian has laid out the perfect event for him. A hard core fan that has loved Drag Racing and cars for years. And I'm sure he would love every minute of that event, I would as well.

But that's not who we need to convince. We need the casual fan to come out, and then to come back. How do we do that?

Alan

 

[Nitro Bass!]

Everything Brian mentioned sounds good. How do you do it? And if you did, would it solve the problem?

Times change, when I was younger (before I was professionally involved) I would watch everything.
In 1984 I drove to Pomona, bought a ticket and sat in the stands. (Sherm Gunn ring a bell) Sunday I didn't even pay the extra $10 for the pit pass, and I watched every car go down all day. I was really into cars and while TF and FC were the fastest and loudest, PS was my favorite, Alcohol cars were awesome, and I still wanted to see the Stock and Super Stockers run.

Fans don't do that anymore. the vast majority watch the Nitro cars them leave the stands. And it's doesn't matter what's next. TAD, PS, PM? None seem to capture the fans. For a casual observer after seeing a car go 340 MPH a car going 270 is slow and not interesting.

Brian has laid out the perfect event for him. A hard core fan that has loved Drag Racing and cars for years. And I'm sure he would love every minute of that event, I would as well.

But that's not who we need to convince. We need the casual fan to come out, and then to come back. How do we do that?

Alan

Several of the posts above address exactly that by looking at the bigger picture from different perspectives: the entertainment factor, the fan engagement factor, and the overall experience.

The racing isn't the only part of the show anymore. Not in the smartphone and technology-driven world we live in today. Fans expect more than just the racing itself. They expect an experience.

As far as Pro Stock goes, I think it's some of the best racing in all of motorsports, with some of the most talented drivers anywhere. But I also don't believe a class that essentially features one body style is going to thrive long-term. Part of what made Pro Stock so compelling years ago was the diversity of manufacturers and body styles. Fans had something extra to identify with and root for. When you look at how many different makes and models are on the road today, it feels like we're missing an opportunity to evolve and expand the class.

Unfortunately, Wall Street and the auto manufacturers don't seem to see the value in spending millions of dollars on Pro Stock, or perhaps even professional drag racing as a whole in today's non-car culture. Whether we like it or not, that's the reality.

That's why listening to the fans, racers, sponsors, and people throughout the industry matters. Ideas matter. The sanctioning bodies need to listen, keep an open mind, and be willing to think outside the box. As several people have already pointed out in this thread, the conversation isn't just about the racing anymore. It's about the entire experience, and that's where the future of the sport will be decided.

 

[ironpony]

Drag racing is a unique product, you have to be a car person and really love it to attend an event. IMO the cost is the lowest of about anything you can do so I do not believe cost has anything to do with it. I still believe that there is just not enough young car enthusiasts to support the sport. Also with each pass lasting 4 seconds or a smoke show then 60-75 minutes of down time it is no the best use of showtime. Other types F1, NASCAR, Indy car, all last continuously for 2 hours or so, the venue is a destination event. Couples attend and mingle about it is a social event, are they true fans, not really but they are attending a social event.

Drag racing costs are out of control and if something is not figured out it is only a matter of time before "sponsors" stop shelling out millions for minutes of advertising. You have seen the results already in short fields when we used to have 5-10 bump spots. You are not going to have to worry about speed and safety as there will be no one being able to afford to go that fast. I do not think drag racing is going to die but TF FC might. PS died a long time ago IMO, is it good racing and technology incredible ? yes but there are 2 camps and one car not exactly drawing in new spectators.

Car culture overall is non existent now. When was the last time you seen a "kid" excited about getting a car, make, model, brand, or license ??

 

[Nitro Bass!]

All great points. This is exactly the conversation that needs to happen, and more importantly, be seen and digested.

Fortune 500 companies want ROI. I don't think they really care how they get it, but they absolutely expect it when they're investing millions of dollars into a sport, a celebrity, a team, or a brand.

Just look at NASCAR, IndyCar, and Formula 1. Their cars are on the track for hours at a time, so the odds of a sponsor's logo getting television exposure are pretty high. Multiply that over the course of an entire season, and the value becomes much easier to justify.

In the nitro classes, the actual race lasts just a few seconds, with only a few total minutes of track time over an entire weekend. That's a tough sell. It doesn't mean the product isn't incredible, it means there has to be something more that attracts sponsors and fans beyond those few seconds of competition.

That's why I'm enjoying the responses in this thread. So many people are getting to the heart of what makes professional drag racing such a difficult product to market in today's world. It's way bigger than slowing nitro cars down.

The irony is that no other form of motorsports can come close to delivering the sensory experience of a nitro car. You don't just watch it, you feel it. The sound, the vibration, the smell, the raw violence of 12,000+ horsepower... it's genuinely life-changing. The challenge isn't the product. The challenge is figuring out how to package and present that experience so sponsors see value, fans stay engaged, and new audiences discover what makes nitro racing unlike anything else in motorsports.

 

[ironpony]

Everything Brian mentioned sounds good. How do you do it? And if you did, would it solve the problem?

Times change, when I was younger (before I was professionally involved) I would watch everything.
In 1984 I drove to Pomona, bought a ticket and sat in the stands. (Sherm Gunn ring a bell) Sunday I didn't even pay the extra $10 for the pit pass, and I watched every car go down all day. I was really into cars and while TF and FC were the fastest and loudest, PS was my favorite, Alcohol cars were awesome, and I still wanted to see the Stock and Super Stockers run.

Fans don't do that anymore. the vast majority watch the Nitro cars them leave the stands. And it's doesn't matter what's next. TAD, PS, PM? None seem to capture the fans. For a casual observer after seeing a car go 340 MPH a car going 270 is slow and not interesting.

Brian has laid out the perfect event for him. A hard core fan that has loved Drag Racing and cars for years. And I'm sure he would love every minute of that event, I would as well.

But that's not who we need to convince. We need the casual fan to come out, and then to come back. How do we do that?

Alan

That is exactly what we have now, The Nitro Circus, comes to town once a year casual fans line up daily to buy tickets. The problem is with changes in life and social norms the Nitro Circus is going the way of Ringling Brothers. You can only watch an elephant balance on a stand so many times. There are too many other events competing for spectators. To the casual fan 300 or 340 has no bearing on why they are there. They are there for the noise, thunder and sensory overload.
Again the 10 minutes of nitro then walking the pits for 60 and back to the stands for 5 minutes now then 60 minutes in the pits well you get the idea. The casual fan can only look at cars on stands so long. And as we all know with todays population downtime is not acceptable.

 

[Nitro Bass!]

That is exactly what we have now, The Nitro Circus, comes to town once a year casual fans line up daily to buy tickets. The problem is with changes in life and social norms the Nitro Circus is going the way of Ringling Brothers. You can only watch an elephant balance on a stand so many times. There are too many other events competing for spectators. To the casual fan 300 or 340 has no bearing on why they are there. They are there for the noise, thunder and sensory overload.
Again the 10 minutes of nitro then walking the pits for 60 and back to the stands for 5 minutes now then 60 minutes in the pits well you get the idea. The casual fan can only look at cars on stands so long. And as we all know with todays population downtime is not acceptable.

Agreed......