The slower show! (1 Viewer)

[none]

Based on known RPM (8150) and approximate speed (320-340), and not factoring for tire slip, the math comes out to 21.1 to 22.4 inches radius (42" to 45" diameter) tire (320/340 MPH respectively)

I guess the rest of us weren't smart enough to reverse engineer the math part! LoL
Mike would certainly know. It is interesting (at least to me) that 1.3 inches of tire growth is 20 mph.

Alan

 

[none]

With the reduction in glue on the track, I'll bet they're a little bigger now.

I'm not sure that's true. While the tire may be spinning a bit more down track and that would tend to make it grow more, I believe that would be offset by the CC adding a bit more wing (downforce) to try to keep the tire hooked. My thought would be that those things would be close to a wash. Maybe Mike can add more?

Alan

 

[ironpony]

I guess the rest of us weren't smart enough to reverse engineer the math part! LoL
Mike would certainly know. It is interesting (at least to me) that 1.3 inches of tire growth is 20 mph.

Alan

except for the fact that the tire is slipping significantly down track...........................

 

[ironpony]

I'm not sure that's true. While the tire may be spinning a bit more down track and that would tend to make it grow more, I believe that would be offset by the CC adding a bit more wing (downforce) to try to keep the tire hooked. My thought would be that those things would be close to a wash. Maybe Mike can add more?

Alan

see posts 79-80

 

[none]

I saw that Ken, and this is your area of expertise not mine, but I'm not talking about the spill plates. My thinking is that with less traction I might add another half a degree or degree of wing in an attempt to keep the tire speed under control and I think that would offset or at least minimize the tire growth. In a Funny Car I would raise the tailgate just as they have done for years to combat summertime track temp.

Am I looking at it wrong? Not trying to argue, trying to learn.

Alan

 

[ironpony]

you can see from this graph how much drag is increased per degree of a TF wing, 4 different design wings
as the angle of attack increases the COD goes up which requires more HP to drive it, so the increase in downforce/traction is negated by the increase in COD

IIRC the lower 3 lines were the old multi element wings and the yellow line is the "new" style wing and spill plates

PS iam not an expert in the field just enjoy researching why some things do what they do and why.

 

[Huge]

View attachment 4674

you can see from this graph how much drag is increased per degree of a TF wing, 3 different design wings

What is the maximum degree angle on a TF wing now?

 

[ironpony]

What is the maximum degree angle on a TF wing now?

I do not know that answer but I am pretty sure it is limited by the NHRA rules

 

[TSK]

What is the maximum degree angle on a TF wing now?

I believe it is a maximum positive of 2 degrees, and a minimum of 2 degrees negative, relative to the racing surface, except at Denver where there is no limit.

 

[Huge]

I believe it is a maximum positive of 2 degrees, and a minimum of 2 degrees negative, relative to the racing surface, except at Denver where there is no limit.

That is what I thought it was. I will ask Del when he gets here today or tomorrow and see if that is still the rule.

 

[none]

Frank Manzo told me once that he could add a 1/4 wicker to the back of the Funny Car and it would slow down 2 mph, but he said that on a hot greasy track, that was the difference in making it down or spinning through the middle and not making it down. The trick was to know when it was necessary and when it wasn't.

That was my thought, if changing the wing would make it go down, even if it comes at the price of speed from the increase COD then its worth it. A car going 308 will beat a car that tried to go 320 but spun in the middle of the track.

Alan

 

[none]

I believe it is a maximum positive of 2 degrees, and a minimum of 2 degrees negative, relative to the racing surface, except at Denver where there is no limit.

The rulebook says maximum 2 degrees no minimum except Denver.

Alan

 

[Dave]

Bob, I'm sorry it has took me so long to respond but driving from Epping NH to South Gate Ca and reloading parts and driving to Denver CO "4,338 miles" has not given me a lot of time to hangout on my laptop. I'm not trying to change your view on the track prep because I think you are mainly interested in the quickest et, fastest mph, and records... and super prepped tracks were good for that purpose. But, I think my post has more value then you want to admit. It doesn't take a calculator to figure out that the deck is stacked against the single car teams vs the 4 car teams for an event win due to 4 times the chances and 4 times the extra data which is very, very important. But, when the tracks were super prepped the single car and smaller budget teams did not have near as much of a chance of winning rounds and even less of a chance of winning the event [with the exception of Wilkerson and Millican]. Since the track prep has been changed we have seen Scott Palmer and Blake Alexander win in TF and Greg Carillo, Shawn Reed, and Mike Salinas have made it to the finals...and Terry Mcmillen has been in a few finals this year with a win, and Clay Millican has a couple of wins this year. Here is a list of the single car teams that have had round wins already this year.
----------------------------
Scott Palmer- Winner
Clay Millican - Winner
Terry Mcmillen - Winner
Cruz Pedregon - Winner
Blake Alexander - Winner
Mike Salinas - Final
Tim Wilkerson - Final
Greg Carillo - Final
Bob Tasca - Final
Shawn Reed - Final
Terry Haddock
Del Worsham
Richard Townsend
Steve Chrisman
Gary Densham
Jeff Diehl
Audrey Worm
Dom Lagana
William Litton
Luigi Novelli
Kyle Wurtzel
Jonnie Lindberg
Jim Campbell
Pat Dakin

Scott Palmer won a race? Did I miss something?

 

[Greggo]

When my dad set the E/BFRMR in 2012, our car weighed ~3800 pounds, had a 256 cu. in. TFX block that we ran the 1, 3, 5 and 7 cylinders on and 3 speed transmission. Our record qualifying run top speed was 282 mph. Our record run incremental speeds were 20 mph faster until the #1 and #3 rods decided to exit the block around the 3.5-mile area. Luckily my clutched the car and coasted fast enough to qualify for and set a record to get him the 200 mph club.
I believe engine life, at least on the salt, can be determined by 2 factors: maintenance and salt conditions. Maintenance programs are always determined by the size of the wallet. When you qualify for a land speed record on the salt, time becomes another factor as well. From the end of your qualifying run, you have 4 hours to service your car in an impound area (not your pit). 4 hours may sound like an eternity but for a small team that only gets a chance to do something like this once or twice a year at best, those hours go by very fast. Consider the tow back to the impound area may take 30 – 45 minutes. Then think about transporting tools, fuel, oil, etc. from your pit to a location that may be over a mile away. Some teams just relocate their entire operation for efficiency. So that 4 hour turn around better be close to perfect. Oh don’t mind a wind storm basically sand blasting you while you are doing the bottom end. LOL And let’s get the 40+ gallons of nitro mixed at precisely XX% for the run at 7:00am the next morning. Pack the chutes and have a beer or 6.
Salt condition… can have a huge effect on engine life. Our car weighs over 3800 pounds but it is considered light because I know of some very fast (300 mph) roadsters that weigh close to 7000 pounds and can you imagine hitting a pothole in the salt or a bump and the car gaining just enough air to zing the motor. Bang – blower just backfired and you probably have a real mess on your hands. Hopefully you keep the car straight because if you start to spin on that surface going that fast, you will also probably need a new fire suit at the end of the day.
From what I am hearing (fingers-crossed), the mining company across the freeway has been pumping the salt back as they should and there should be much better conditions this year. We have a C motor in the car now and hope to get my Dad in the 300 mph club.

Great convo guys.

 

[Luke Nieuwhof]

Really enjoying this discussion guys, thanks!

 

[Z28LT1]

Frank Manzo told me once that he could add a 1/4 wicker to the back of the Funny Car and it would slow down 2 mph, but he said that on a hot greasy track, that was the difference in making it down or spinning through the middle and not making it down. The trick was to know when it was necessary and when it wasn't.

That was my thought, if changing the wing would make it go down, even if it comes at the price of speed from the increase COD then its worth it. A car going 308 will beat a car that tried to go 320 but spun in the middle of the track.

Alan

Alan and all,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the 3 element wing with 6000-8000 lbs of downforce is required to keep the car on the ground, but is needed to put load on the motor so they can cram more fuel/air into it. I thought the reason they limited the angle of attack wasn't to take away downforce, but to limit the load on the motor and in essence limit the amount of fuel and air that can be crammed in.

Yes/No/Maybe?

 

[ironpony]

Alan and all,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the 3 element wing with 6000-8000 lbs of downforce is required to keep the car on the ground, but is needed to put load on the motor so they can cram more fuel/air into it. I thought the reason they limited the angle of attack wasn't to take away downforce, but to limit the load on the motor and in essence limit the amount of fuel and air that can be crammed in.

Yes/No/Maybe?

both, by creating downforce it creates traction which keeps the tires from spinning which keep the engine loaded down.

 

[ironpony]

I saw that Ken, and this is your area of expertise not mine, but I'm not talking about the spill plates. My thinking is that with less traction I might add another half a degree or degree of wing in an attempt to keep the tire speed under control and I think that would offset or at least minimize the tire growth. In a Funny Car I would raise the tailgate just as they have done for years to combat summertime track temp.

Am I looking at it wrong? Not trying to argue, trying to learn.

Alan

Raising and lowering the spill plates also raises and lowers the downforce in a different way. raising them keeps the air from "spilling" off of the wing, kind of like a dam, if that makes sense. lowering them allows the air to "spill" off the end of the wing. This also creates different turbulence at the end of the wing.
no arguing here either just want to learn also.

 

[Huge]

Scott Palmer won a race? Did I miss something?

No...but thanks for catching that mistake. I was thinking that Palmer beat Carillo in the final round at Phoenix but it was the semi final. Torrence beat Palmer in the final round. I should not have made that mistake because I was standing there watching it. Palmers team sure celebrated like they won.

 

[Cliff]

Was watching Science Channel & story about how a jet fighter, approaching the speed of sound, can make it's own "cloud". Really wild looking, but has to do with moisture in the air, etc. Well, can't do that in a dragster, but I have seen dragsters with "mist" coming off both sides of the rear wing. See that in humid conditions I think. Anyhoo, it looks really cool & reminds you of a jet fighter. I have always heard that if you'd flip the front & rear wing over, it would generate lift & the dragster would fly. Kinda what happens with a blowover. Drag racing is such an amazing sport. We have stuff no other racing in the world has.