Find NHRA's decade of thrills from the 80's, look at some of those explosions, they rival anything I've seen in the last 2-3 years! How much Fuel volume were they running then?
something(s) has to be done! And Fast! (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Clark W.
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Find NHRA's decade of thrills from the 80's, look at some of those explosions, they rival anything I've seen in the last 2-3 years! How much Fuel volume were they running then?
Rexfiles
Nitro Member
However, the parts in modern fuel engines are much better, and stronger than they were in the 1970's and 80's.
I could imagine 8000 hp parts in a 5000hp powerplant, would enjoy a somewhat longer lifespan.
On the flip side though, I've seen some pretty big alky boomers, nothing as catastrophic as the nitro variety, but engines fail on those cars too.......
REX
I could imagine 8000 hp parts in a 5000hp powerplant, would enjoy a somewhat longer lifespan.
On the flip side though, I've seen some pretty big alky boomers, nothing as catastrophic as the nitro variety, but engines fail on those cars too.......
REX
Gregg Pickens
Nitro Member
Don Garlits gave us the solution 20 years ago, one mag and one pump.
90-percent
Nitro Member
Garlits also gave us more solutions in the recent National Dragster with the feature on all the legends of the sport.
one of the things i find interesting is that nitro dragsters in the sixties could weight as little as 800 pounds! small block chevies, pete robinson and others ran extremly light cars. 1,100 to 1,400 pounds seems to be thee norm for sixties FED's, yes?
from memory - the current weight limit is in the neighborhood of 3,000 pounds or so.
therefore - why not go back to MILD STEEL TUBE for the chassis? why go with aerospace esoteric 4130 chrome moly to get the strength to weight needed when the cars have to be so frigging heavy by the rules, the benefits of chrome moly ARE NO LONGER NEEDED! why do you need a 50 pound chassis if your car has to weigh 3,000 pounds?
the benefits of mild steel when it comes to fabrication, FATIGUE, work hardening and metallurgy ARE BETTER THAN CHROME MOLY! it's friendlier in all areas that concern a race car except for STRENGTH TO WEIGHT RATIO. I think the ductility and better fatigue resistance of mild steel is something to reconsider in nitro racing!
the current car design is the result of 20-30 years of slow evolution with great respect given to the mid 60's nitro car building paradigm. Why not throw this paradigm out completely and start with a clean sheet of paper with designs coming right out of 2010 technology, instead of the evolved tech that dates back to the sixties?
i would like to target like 4.90's at 300 flat as the performance plateau. and construct the rule details in such a way as to make this expensive equipment live a lot longer than it does now. garlits said todays stuff is bulletproof. lets not stress it to 110% of it's load bearing capability with each run. let's stress it to 50% and let the parts live for a few seasons, instead of only one race!
the fuel pump, blower size stuff i dont know much about. i favor 400 cubic inches instead. there have been plenty of less that 350 cubic inch nitro cars in nitro history that have done pretty good back in their era! i'm in favor of anything that makes the motor live a long time, even at 500 inches.
acceleration contests are a physics problem involving the acceleration of mass. lighter cars have always been a way to go faster. now that the mass is roughly double what it was in the sixties, why not look at friendlier materials across the board? Warren Johnson said in the same ND issue one of the many areas of drag racing that are better than they ever were is in the areas of material science.
-90% jimmy
one of the things i find interesting is that nitro dragsters in the sixties could weight as little as 800 pounds! small block chevies, pete robinson and others ran extremly light cars. 1,100 to 1,400 pounds seems to be thee norm for sixties FED's, yes?
from memory - the current weight limit is in the neighborhood of 3,000 pounds or so.
therefore - why not go back to MILD STEEL TUBE for the chassis? why go with aerospace esoteric 4130 chrome moly to get the strength to weight needed when the cars have to be so frigging heavy by the rules, the benefits of chrome moly ARE NO LONGER NEEDED! why do you need a 50 pound chassis if your car has to weigh 3,000 pounds?
the benefits of mild steel when it comes to fabrication, FATIGUE, work hardening and metallurgy ARE BETTER THAN CHROME MOLY! it's friendlier in all areas that concern a race car except for STRENGTH TO WEIGHT RATIO. I think the ductility and better fatigue resistance of mild steel is something to reconsider in nitro racing!
the current car design is the result of 20-30 years of slow evolution with great respect given to the mid 60's nitro car building paradigm. Why not throw this paradigm out completely and start with a clean sheet of paper with designs coming right out of 2010 technology, instead of the evolved tech that dates back to the sixties?
i would like to target like 4.90's at 300 flat as the performance plateau. and construct the rule details in such a way as to make this expensive equipment live a lot longer than it does now. garlits said todays stuff is bulletproof. lets not stress it to 110% of it's load bearing capability with each run. let's stress it to 50% and let the parts live for a few seasons, instead of only one race!
the fuel pump, blower size stuff i dont know much about. i favor 400 cubic inches instead. there have been plenty of less that 350 cubic inch nitro cars in nitro history that have done pretty good back in their era! i'm in favor of anything that makes the motor live a long time, even at 500 inches.
acceleration contests are a physics problem involving the acceleration of mass. lighter cars have always been a way to go faster. now that the mass is roughly double what it was in the sixties, why not look at friendlier materials across the board? Warren Johnson said in the same ND issue one of the many areas of drag racing that are better than they ever were is in the areas of material science.
-90% jimmy
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My favorite time in the sport of drag racing was around '92 and '93, when 300MPH runs, and 4 second funny car passes where a rarity. To me those were the most exciting races to watch. You knew if the air was good, you might see a 300 or a 4 second run in FC. It was just a different feel to it back then, that was exponentially better than today.
Rexfiles
Nitro Member
I don't have the current rule book, but I thinnnnnnk, T/F is 2250 lbs., and F/C 2350.
Could be wrong, If I am, I'll be sure to be corrected shortly
.
I'm not a metallurgist, so I'll take your word on alloy's.
I also read Garlit's article, and of course he make's sense.
Buuuuuut, methinks eventually 4.90's would beget 4.80's, and so on.
I remember Lee Beard in the early nineties, possibly late eighties, in an article in Car and Driver, responding to the idea of NHRA going to 400 cubes for Nitro, (the insurance industry was down NHRA's throats about the speeds nearing 300mph at the time)..........he laughed, said he'd "spin 'em 1000rpm faster, and be right back where we are now in less than a year".
I think even restricted by whatever, cubes, gearing, blower size, mags, pumps, whatever, in five years this topic will be back.
REX
Could be wrong, If I am, I'll be sure to be corrected shortly
.I'm not a metallurgist, so I'll take your word on alloy's.
I also read Garlit's article, and of course he make's sense.
Buuuuuut, methinks eventually 4.90's would beget 4.80's, and so on.
I remember Lee Beard in the early nineties, possibly late eighties, in an article in Car and Driver, responding to the idea of NHRA going to 400 cubes for Nitro, (the insurance industry was down NHRA's throats about the speeds nearing 300mph at the time)..........he laughed, said he'd "spin 'em 1000rpm faster, and be right back where we are now in less than a year".
I think even restricted by whatever, cubes, gearing, blower size, mags, pumps, whatever, in five years this topic will be back.
REX
Tim5636sc
Nitro Member
I'm gonna get in trouble for this, but I just can't resist! Ferrous metals (from the Periodic Table symbol "Fe" for element number 26) contain iron.
Ferris is the guy who had the day off! -
yeah...yeah...yeah... I got it... thanks.
but the point remains uncontested.... find a better lubricant, and you begin to fix some issues.
I don't have the current rule book, but I thinnnnnnk, T/F is 2250 lbs., and F/C 2350.
Could be wrong, If I am, I'll be sure to be corrected shortly
I'm not a metallurgist, so I'll take your word on alloy's.
I also read Garlit's article, and of course he make's sense.
Buuuuuut, methinks eventually 4.90's would beget 4.80's, and so on.
I remember Lee Beard in the early nineties, possibly late eighties, in an article in Car and Driver, responding to the idea of NHRA going to 400 cubes for Nitro, (the insurance industry was down NHRA's throats about the speeds nearing 300mph at the time)..........he laughed, said he'd "spin 'em 1000rpm faster, and be right back where we are now in less than a year".
I think even restricted by whatever, cubes, gearing, blower size, mags, pumps, whatever, in five years this topic will be back.
REX
I agree, but the pace we are on, we are looking at 660' racing with 2.94 ET's @ 310 MPH. 7 more years, 1.74 ET's @ 295 MPH in 330'.......Boy this sounds like fun to watch. All of a sudden we are at the "Sand Drags" (no offense) and racing to 100 yds. What most fans want is something that lasts for 4.5 to 5 seconds, side by side, 1320', that allow for some real driving and has speeds that go over 300 MPH once in a while, and is extremely loud and has some cackle to it. The problem is we have very smart people doing this (crew chiefs and owners) that want the ultimate ET and will do anything at any cost to accomplish it, and fans who just want good, close, loud, smokey burnouts, and 1/4 mile racing that doesn't take all day to finish. News flash for the car owners and drivers - - - ITS NOT ABOUT THE ET's - - - - We have lots of work to do.........................
A couple things, first, the tracks this year have been super preped. Teams in nitro are getting one pass out off slicks due to track ripping rubber off . Last year it was like 4 passes out of slicks. Simple if track conditions are loose cars will have to go slower. Second, its hard to get a motor to survive in nitro, it just doesnt happen, nitro is very powerfull. Putting ten pounds of **** (nitro)in a five pound bag causes problems. If the car goes slower, teams will just pull timing or lean out and put motor on egde again and have same problems as before.Its drag racing and that motor is always on edge nomater what to get that little edge. Even a clean pass hurts all bottom end. Rods shrink every pass, piston domes cave in, lower bearings are mashed, rings are cashed, crank only lasts 7 passes ( it cracks), and so on. There is alot of behind the scenes in nitro racing.Teams with a unlimited buget will blow that moter every pass to turn that number. Thats why nhra limits your oil downs otherwise it would happen every pass for that edge.
Rexfiles
Nitro Member
I remember taking people to their first Nitro match race (what are those
) or whatever in the eighties early nineties.They were absolutely SHOCKED at the power and thunder and smoke and flames. (they done blowed up alot too
).The more and more I mull this over, yeah, We, (me, you, they, you know what I mean..................) are addicted to MORE!
I know I LOVE to see a great pass and a record ET or speed, but the racing really ain't there is it. One lane up in smoke, one lane chattering the tires, or blowing to smithereens.
I remember at Hawley's, in 1986, when I went for the TAFC class, in the right hands, those cars (school) back then, were capable of probably very low 7's, or high 6's.
No, I didn't have the "right hands".....I got it down the track under power, but would use a little extra 'real estate' to get to the stripe.
We had a bench racing session with Frank, and he told us how much further, at various points down track, a Nitro Funny would be ahead of us if we were in a strong, competitive alky car.
To say the least, I remember being absolutely stunned beyond comprehension, I think the best ET I had was in the low-mid sevens, and I thought NOTHING could EVER touch or outrun that car.
At the time, Nitro Funnies were in the 5.60's, and I remember watching a 5.60 260 pass and getting goose pimples over the absolute fury.
I guess something MAY be done, but I think it will eventually be done elsewhere. There is too much $$$$$$ tied up to throttle back these beasts, I know myself, I am going to go to Nostalgia events this year, the first at ATCO in early June. Possibly the Division 1 in July at Lebanon Valley.
Unfortunately, after seeing Scott's demise firsthand, the National events lost some of their luster for this fan.........
REX
Nick Name
Nitro Member
Jimmy;
A lot of people died in those light weight cars back then, including Pete Robinson
James
Nitro Member
Sorry to have jumped down your throat but at times you seem like the spokesperson for the status quo. I know the sport has a long history of big blow ups but right now the overall costs of running one of these things means there are only a handfull of competetive cars, thus the racing suffers. So we have shortened races with less competetive cars and qualifying is a formality at best. This is not a sign of current or future health. If they took fuel volume away it would help solve allot of these problems. Yep a failure will still result in big time damage and yes the crew chiefs will figure out how to make them quicker. At the point where their going too fast the NHRA would just have to adjust the rules a bit and the process would start again. My self I think Top fuelers running 4.70's and FC's running 4.90's is what they should shoot for. But hell at least do something!!!
Maybe nostalgia will save the nitro side of the sport. All I know is the big show cars are less interesting for me as each year passes.
It seems to me that running "near" the ragged edge wins more races that running "over" the ragged edge with the motor eating itself up. If I remember right, The Chi-Town Hustler won a couple of World Championships with Hawley driving by being consistent and getting down the track under power. Oh, and I think they had 2 or 3 crewmembers...............I'd like to know how many blocks and cranks they went through for those two seasons. I realize it was 25 years ago, but the equipment was nowhere near the quality it is now. We are just pushing this stuff way too hard with too much volume. Its not "rocket Science"......but its close!
Kenny B.
Nitro Member
How's this for thought guys...Why don't we just take one mag away??
Think about it, The fuel you put into an engine is only good if you can burn it. By taking away one mag you lose half the firing power to burn the volume of fuel they think they need at this time. You can easily cut the motor back to one pump and still see very fast runs. The NHRA Heritage series runs their fuel dragsters with a 6-71 blower, single MSD 44 mag, and a direct drive, 3 disk mechanical only clutch. Their engines are all under 426 ci using I believe a 20 gallon pump, no ignition or fuel management, and still manage to run as fast as 5.50s at 265 mph....Now tell me, You throw 60 gallons at a 500 ci, 14-71 topped AJ hemi, with a multi-staged 5 or 6 disk clutch with fuel and ignition controllers on. You can go back to 1/4 mile racing and still see 4 second passes at 300 mph with big header flames and that groud pounding action we love. Your fuel volume goes down, your ets drop a little but it accomplishes some issues that the professional level teams have been faced with.
Not sure if anyone saw a clip that Hot Rod Mag had on Snake, but he was saying that his team dropped $100thousand per month on parts. PER MONTH!!!! and for just one car. By dropping one mag from the engine, no team has obsolite engines or parts. No team has to purchase all new "spec engines" and you really don't have to change much on the engine to adapt to the changes...just tune up! I think that if we can get some rules to keep the fuel levels at a certain amount we will see more people coming out of the works to compete again....perhaps a rule that says you have to use the same engine block in eliminations that you qualify with. I know it sounds rediculous now but Jack Harris several years ago got over 220 runs on the same block running Nostalgia Nitro Dragster. Which here on the West Coast, NTF motors see well over 8000 rpms each run. You get the motors happy and its not out of the question by any means.
Throw in some Clean Boost 70wt Motor oil in the mix and you'll have a winning combination for the future of the sport!!
Think about it, The fuel you put into an engine is only good if you can burn it. By taking away one mag you lose half the firing power to burn the volume of fuel they think they need at this time. You can easily cut the motor back to one pump and still see very fast runs. The NHRA Heritage series runs their fuel dragsters with a 6-71 blower, single MSD 44 mag, and a direct drive, 3 disk mechanical only clutch. Their engines are all under 426 ci using I believe a 20 gallon pump, no ignition or fuel management, and still manage to run as fast as 5.50s at 265 mph....Now tell me, You throw 60 gallons at a 500 ci, 14-71 topped AJ hemi, with a multi-staged 5 or 6 disk clutch with fuel and ignition controllers on. You can go back to 1/4 mile racing and still see 4 second passes at 300 mph with big header flames and that groud pounding action we love. Your fuel volume goes down, your ets drop a little but it accomplishes some issues that the professional level teams have been faced with.
Not sure if anyone saw a clip that Hot Rod Mag had on Snake, but he was saying that his team dropped $100thousand per month on parts. PER MONTH!!!! and for just one car. By dropping one mag from the engine, no team has obsolite engines or parts. No team has to purchase all new "spec engines" and you really don't have to change much on the engine to adapt to the changes...just tune up! I think that if we can get some rules to keep the fuel levels at a certain amount we will see more people coming out of the works to compete again....perhaps a rule that says you have to use the same engine block in eliminations that you qualify with. I know it sounds rediculous now but Jack Harris several years ago got over 220 runs on the same block running Nostalgia Nitro Dragster. Which here on the West Coast, NTF motors see well over 8000 rpms each run. You get the motors happy and its not out of the question by any means.
Throw in some Clean Boost 70wt Motor oil in the mix and you'll have a winning combination for the future of the sport!!
BrettV
Nitro Member
I think this has been mentioned before, how about limiting each car to 2 engines per event? Or perhaps X number of pistons, Y number of rods, etc. That would certainly keep tuners from getting too close to the edge.
Kenny B.
Nitro Member
Too add to my thought....Did anyone see when they interviewed Steve Chrisman at the beginning of the year? He has not only learned how to save parts but MAKE money off NHRA. If anyone can find the interview it might be something cool to throw up here to get some more ideas to throw in the mix!!
Thats true but Chrisman is running soft on purpose he is deliberatly not running hard so he can save money and parts. If he pushed it like the others he would probably hurt stuff to.
I don't like the idea of slowing them down but if it saves nitro racing then huh thats a good thing. But hey I just have one thing to say in that respect
Steve Plueger for president. I have listened to enough interviews with that man to get the idea that he knows what he is talking about.
Steve Plueger for president. I have listened to enough interviews with that man to get the idea that he knows what he is talking about.
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