New Mater big enough for Sportsman talk?? (2 Viewers)

[Jenn]

Bob (back from Bandimere and looking forward to spending next weekend in Great Bend) [/QUOTE]

Was nice meeting you in Denver! Don't know if we'll be going to GB or not just yet. We stayed there Sunday to pull the converter out of the yellow car and are going to run it up to town to have it gone though.

 

[MoparBilly]

Pro racing is a spectator sport. Sportsman racing is a participant sport. That's how each pays it's bills.

If it weren't for bracket racing, I wouldn't have been able to race anything for the last several years. It IS exciting to be within a few feet of a finish line and have to make a split-second decision that you're instantly going to live or die by....

I couldn't agree more Ron. I also agree with what Karl, Terry and Jean have brought up...the Super Classes aren't particularly fan friendly, but I believe they can be very exciting entertainment....to me it's an "aquired taste", kinda like a good stout ale, or strong red wine!

First of all, Super Class racing is best watched from a nice bleacher between 1000ft, and the finish line...as high up as you can get..unforunately most tracks don't have these accomodations!! (Texas Motorplex has a perfect spot on the pit side). 2nd, it helps to get to know some of the drivers personally, I absolutely abhor SC..bunch of long skinny diggers that look the same, run the same, and take forever to run, with the across the start line burnouts...but If I have 7 or 8 people I know to root for..I can set through a session! 3rd, a complete understanding of the tactics and rules involved helps.

Now, let's look at T-stops, Electronics and Big MPH Cars
#1 As NHRA Events have grown, and all the feilds have gotten bigger, Super Class racers have gotten fewer and fewer time runs, spead further and further apart.
#2 All NHRA Events, National or Divisional, depend on traveling racers for car counts. When you look at SG/SC car counts over 100 for nearly every event, and SST numbers averaging 50-60 cars, It may surprise you to check the points and realize there are only about 1000-1200 people active in each class!

If you want these traveling racers to dial in TO A SPECIFIC INDEX in 3 or less time runs spread over 2 or 3 days, at a track they only see 1 or 2 times a year (if at all), an electronically controled T-stop is an absolute necessity, not a luxury. Do away with it, and the hometown cars have a HUGE advantage, and guys have much less motivation to travel, Divisional car counts would decrease dramatically, and those events wouldn't survive financially.

Now, lets look at the MPH issue...with all the variables of a race weekend..weather, track prep, wind ETC. There is not a single SST racer I know, that can wake up Sunday morning, after his last time run was Saturday at noon, and confidently say, "I'm on a .90"...that's the hardest thing for a bracket racer who runs 3 times runs in 4 hours and has 1st round in 30 minutes to understand...they all say, "What's the big deal, Cut a light and Run the number, MPH doesn't matter". Then the first time they wake up and realize the tractors are out prepping the track, the weather is completely different, and it's time to race(BTW I LIVE for those Sunday Mornings..every nerve end is tingling, the gut is churning, the brain is in hyperdrive, and you wake up to Stockers already warming up thier beasts on jackstands...I thank God for every one of them I get!), they realize, hmm, we are all out here guessing!! Sure, some guys are better, and can narrow it to 2 hundredths, some guys have a 6 hundredths window...but do you set up on .90-.92, or .88 to .90?? .90 to .96 or .84 to .90?? Running slow is sure to lose, so nearly everyone tries to set up towards the fast side, at that point finish line racing becomes critical, and almost every advantage at the stripe goes to the faster car.

Hey, if NHRA outlawed T-stops and elctronics, I'd still race SST, I love the class, but tracks like Denver, Great Bend, and Sonoma would come off my traveling plans, they are just too tricky, and local guys would win those races every year.

Chris,
You can be extremely competitve in SST without electronics, as long as you know the track, have the car dialed to that track, and understand your car. I implore every bracket racer with a 10 second ride to give it a try if a Divisional is nearby..just be ready for a steep learning curve if you travel!!

Bob,
Have fun in GB!! My dad and brother will be racing there, but, as much as I love racing at SCRA Dragstrip, and the hospitality of the town, it didn't make the cut this year...I decided to add the Texas Motorplex to my list of tracks I've raced at instead...I wasn't dissapointed!!

 

[Demon]

Billy, Believe me,I'm soaking in all info I can get!! I also see that you are leading your divisions points. What I see in my division (2) is thet the S/St car count at divsionals is SMALL.There have been fields of 30-40 cars,(average of 34) so I see that as a bit easier way to run competitively without using a box or stop.As I said ,I'm not against it at all,I'm just not a fan of them.But I like the fact that if the driver and car are in sync,it's a hard to beat combo.There is no way I'd run S/G or S/C without electronics,as the car count to me is too much.As far as traveling,we did that somewhat when we bracket raced another car we had,and did well with it,not constantly winning,but enough to make it worthwhile.I also think what you hear and observe is also very important.I've been going,but not racing at our divisionals,and I'm doing a lot of note taking.

 

[Nitrohaulic]

You get nothing but agreement from me, Billy. The same works the other way around, too. A good friend of mine is deadly and has been points champ at Bristol with his bracket dragster, but doesn't do so well when he tries to run S/C only when there's a nearby race.

Think about something. When there's a big money sportsman race, what is it? It's always a bracket race where you choose your own dial in.

But, then NHRA has their "index" bracket racing where you try to run their number instead of yours. Wouldn't it be better if NHRA did away with all those different classes and instead had a big money bracket race that all those same cars could enter? I could see doing that and outlawing throttle stops at the same time. It's going to be harder for the out of towners no matter WHICH deal you have.

I guess time constraints would still be your biggest problem. It's too bad you couldn't have the best of both worlds at one race, a national event that includes the more spectator friendly cars, and a big money bracket race that's more attractive to participants. The more the sport turns into a professional level based one, the less they're going to want sportsman level cars chewing up the clock.

 

[Bob]

Jenn,
It was nice meeting you too! Your guys had some tough luck on Thunder Mountain... It'd be great to see you at SRCA Dragstrip, hope you can make it!

Billy,
I know what you mean about experiencing different tracks. I have three on my schedule this year that I hadn't been to before. Keep having fun with that Mopar!

Bob

 

[StockersRock]

WOW, what a great thread!
I love Stock and Super Stock, and have a quickly gaining interest in Comp. I also love the Alky classes. Whether you consider them Sportsman or not, NHRA does, so I do too. I won't lie, I HATE the .90 classes. I understand it tree to stripe, and I give all those involved props for being involved, but the throttle stop racing just isn't my bag. Every point I have against it has been said in other posts in this thread, so I won't even bother going there. Watching a Stocker/Super Stocker run on their dial is such a thrill, especially if there's a good size handicap involved.


It seems that enough people are interested for us to ask for a Sportsman section on here. I wasn't intending on spearheading a campaign, but this thread should prove that there's enough here to support it. Go here to add your name if you support the idea. I only found this site about a year ago, but it's a highlight of my day to be able to talk about the sport I love more than any other. If I could talk a little bit more of it, that would be even better!
Thanks,
Andy

 

[staggerlee]

.90

i understand the .90 classes from the competitors view, but as a fan of alcohol, super stock and stock, it has been quite a bummer to see NHRA pull them from the national events only to fill it up with the .90 cars. although it does leave time to go to the pits, concessions etc., it isn't entertaining. That was a good economics lesson a few posts back,but super classes will never be fan friendly. unfortunately it's all about the money. D/MP

 

[stanman]

...but just way way way too much delay box for me?

Terry,

I think you meant to say throttle stop instead of delay box.

Why do so many people mistakenly blame delay boxes for their dislike of the Super categories.

 

[None]

Hope ya don't find my ramblings too boring!!!

Nope, It's all good.

 

[stanman]

... Explain to me why it's good to spend big bucks, to watch what I see as a car fall on it's face 30 foot off the line?

If a car fell on its face 30 foot off the line it's broke.

The reason it's good to spend big bucks is because it is an advantage to have the higher mile per hour car... plain and simple.

 

[stanman]

... Wouldn't it be better if NHRA did away with all those different classes and instead had a big money bracket race that all those same cars could enter? I could see doing that and outlawing throttle stops at the same time. It's going to be harder for the out of towners no matter WHICH deal you have. ...

I've sent a similar proposal to NHRA in the past and spoke in confidentiality with someone in a position of authority.

My proposal was this...

Eliminate Stock, Super Stock, and the Super Categories. They are all just bracket racing anyway.

Make throttle stops illegal. Delay boxes legal in all classes. Nitrous oxide legal in all classes.

Engine diaper mandatory on all cars running quicker than 10.99.

New classes: Top Sportsman, Top Dragster, Top Comp, Super Bracket, and Street Bracket.

Top Comp would be an all run 8.19 or quicker field, allowing non-qualifiers from Top Sportsman and Dragster to run.

Super Bracket would be a wide open bracket allowing any type of vehicle running 10.99 or quicker, down to 8.19.

Street Bracket would be for full bodied cars with a limited number of chassis modifications.

The person in "a position of authority" looked at me, smiled, and said I wasn't to far off from his vision of the NHRA sportsman categories.

 

[Crash]

Personally, I would have no issue with getting rid of the stops. I like the racing as it is, I like the gnat's-ass margin of error, but it would be a whole new challenge to do it without the electronics. Notice I didn't say harder, just different. Weather stations would still be legal, as would changing the shift point, launch RPM, etc. It would stilll not be a spectator class, I don't recall the stands being full before all the electronics came into the class, and they wouldn't be if these changes were made. A "Top Sportsman" type of category might generate a little more interest, but most fans want the noise or the wheelstands, not finish line racing, which everything below Comp is, to some degree.

 

[Demon]

Take no offence Greg,but those proposals are hideous!! Get rid of Stock and S/S?? I take it you are not a fan of bracket racing at all.Engine diaper on 10.99 cars?? They must lose a lot of engines?? Your ideas to me would make drag racing a big $$$$ sport,not to be enjoyed by the little guy or weekend warrior.

 

[stanman]

Take no offence Greg,but those proposals are hideous!! Get rid of Stock and S/S?? I take it you are not a fan of bracket racing at all.Engine diaper on 10.99 cars?? They must lose a lot of engines?? Your ideas to me would make drag racing a big $$$$ sport,not to be enjoyed by the little guy or weekend warrior.

Chris,

Are you kidding me? My proposal is all about bracket racing!! The entire sportsman program would be WOT bracket racing. I run Top Comp and am one of the biggest supporters of bracket racing there is on the west coast. Ask anyone that knows me!

I'd like to hear how you think my proposal would make it any different for the little guy or weekend warrior? They could still race in the Super Bracket or Street Bracket. Everyone could gravitate to the level they want to compete at with my proposal. It would definitely reduce the cost from what guys are currently spending in Stock and Super Stock... they wouldn't have to scheme up new ways and spend piles of money to skirt the rules.

Also, my proposal has nothing to do with the Summit E.T. Racing Series or any other local or big bucks bracket races.

As for the 10.99 diaper rule...

What do you have against safety? Diapers are cheap insurance. They make the drivers safer by preventing a blown motor from causing a crash. And I won't even get into the time savings from all the track clean-ups.

 

[mike Omalley]

I am a Big fan of Heads-up racing,some sportmans racers like the West Coast Hemi Team who have worked very hard to bring fans the SS/AH class,I think is great for the sport of drag racing,and they will have Jeggie driving one of the cars at the U.S. Nationals again this year.This is a great show for the fans and they already have a 32 car field for this event. This team is as well funded and have a very professional team. I wish them the very best of luck at Indy this year. and all of the rest of the field.

 

[Mr. Jean]

If a car fell on its face 30 foot off the line it's broke.

The reason it's good to spend big bucks is because it is an advantage to have the higher mile per hour car... plain and simple.

Perhaps you missed this part of my post.
"It's all good, but to me, it would be much better for the sport and the racer's to get rid of the timer stuff. I know all about wanting the top end speed and all. I just think it would be better, not to see the slow down after the launch."

On the 30 foot remark, I meant when the timers kick in, it looks like it broke, I agree. Then takes off again. Not fun to watch for the fans and if they don't understand it, their not going to go sit at the stripe to watch.

 

[stanman]

Perhaps you missed this part of my post.
"It's all good, but to me, it would be much better for the sport and the racer's to get rid of the timer stuff. I know all about wanting the top end speed and all. I just think it would be better, not to see the slow down after the launch."

On the 30 foot remark, I meant when the timers kick in, it looks like it broke, I agree. Then takes off again. Not fun to watch for the fans and if they don't understand it, their not going to go sit at the stripe to watch.

Jean, I should have expanded on my 30' comment. By the time 99% of the cars reached the 30' mark they have already been on the stop for about 29'.

Almost every single car in the country goes on the stop damn near immediately after the transbrake release... at the latest maybe .02 seconds.

When I was running Super Comp or Gas, my t-stop timer always came on at 0.00, meaning it went on the stop instantly.

So if it fell on it's face at 30', it was broke. If not of the higher RPM on the launch from where the t-stop is set it wouldn't be as noticable.

 

[stanman]

I am a Big fan of Heads-up racing,some sportmans racers like the West Coast Hemi Team who have worked very hard to bring fans the SS/AH class,I think is great for the sport of drag racing,and they will have Jeggie driving one of the cars at the U.S. Nationals again this year.This is a great show for the fans and they already have a 32 car field for this event. This team is as well funded and have a very professional team. I wish them the very best of luck at Indy this year. and all of the rest of the field.

Mike,

I love the SS/AA deal! And there should always be a place for special events like the Hemi Challenge.

But that is part of the problem with drag racing... the sport is so diluted with all the different categories and different classes within each.

It's proven out by just the way the racers are fractured amongst themselves in their own in turfdoms. How do you get the casual fan to relate to all the different categories and classes?

I should also clarify that my "plan" above is strictly related to Natinonal Events!

 

[Mr. Jean]

Jean, I should have expanded on my 30' comment. By the time 99% of the cars reached the 30' mark they have already been on the stop for about 29'.

Almost every single car in the country goes on the stop damn near immediately after the transbrake release... at the latest maybe .02 seconds.

When I was running Super Comp or Gas, my t-stop timer always came on at 0.00, meaning it went on the stop instantly.

So if it fell on it's face at 30', it was broke. If not of the higher RPM on the launch from where the t-stop is set it wouldn't be as noticable.

LOL Yup, I knew what you meant. It's just looks like something I always tried to avoid in the old days. Looks and sounds like they shift from first to fourth gear.

 

[stanman]

... Looks and sounds like they shift from first to fourth gear.

Yeah, can't argue that...

or like me in my daily driver '96 S-10. The synchro for 2nd gear is fubar and I have to go from 1st to 3rd. LOL And with a gutless turd like the little 4-cylinder, you can imagine what that is like. LMAO