I am confused about Pro Stock (2 Viewers)

[Gordon]

I wonder how many short fields there will be in TF next year? When 10 out of the 13 full time touring pros make the "playoffs" and with budgets being tight skipping a race may not be a bad idea.

Don't get me wrong, I despise the countdown as much as the next guy... but using your logic above, let me ask this. What would be the motivation for TF cars to continue to show up after Indy this year under the old points system? Even if Shoe DQ's at Indy, a fate that is remarkably unlikely, he's got a 526 point lead! Under no circumstances would anyone have even the slightest chance of catching him.

Again, I hate the countdown just like you, even if I'm not as vocal about it. But the teams race, for the most part, because they love the sport. In Big's interview he admitted to telling Wally (at Indy) that they didn't care about the purse, they were going to race anyway. Whereas the cost has sky-rocketed so that folks need to earn at least a little money in order to stay out there, they still do it because it's their passion. Add to that the fact that sponsors pay them to race the car, and they likely wouldn't have a choice in the matter anyway... though the Tuttle car proved otherwise at Reading - that's the exception rather than the rule.

I guess I'm saying that I have been able to put aside my dislike for the clowndown system because I too, have a passion, and I'm not going to let NHRA take it away from me because of their silly little games. I love the personalities. I love seeing AJ keep everyone scratching their heads. I love seeing Cory Mac doing well again. I love hearing the history and love for the sport roll of Larry Dixon's tongue as if he were the library of NHRA. I love the diversity that seems so easy for us while all other forms of motorsports struggle. I love seeing a guy like John Force start with literally nothing and become who he is... I love it all. In the end, the points are secondary, even tertiary, regardless of the way their collected.

 

[PJ]

Don't get me wrong, I despise the countdown as much as the next guy... but using your logic above, let me ask this. What would be the motivation for TF cars to continue to show up after Indy this year under the old points system? Even if Shoe DQ's at Indy, a fate that is remarkably unlikely, he's got a 526 point lead! Under no circumstances would anyone have even the slightest chance of catching him.

Again, I hate the countdown just like you, even if I'm not as vocal about it. But the teams race, for the most part, because they love the sport. In Big's interview he admitted to telling Wally (at Indy) that they didn't care about the purse, they were going to race anyway. Whereas the cost has sky-rocketed so that folks need to earn at least a little money in order to stay out there, they still do it because it's their passion. Add to that the fact that sponsors pay them to race the car, and they likely wouldn't have a choice in the matter anyway... though the Tuttle car proved otherwise at Reading - that's the exception rather than the rule.

I guess I'm saying that I have been able to put aside my dislike for the clowndown system because I too, have a passion, and I'm not going to let NHRA take it away from me because of their silly little games. I love the personalities. I love seeing AJ keep everyone scratching their heads. I love seeing Cory Mac doing well again. I love hearing the history and love for the sport roll of Larry Dixon's tongue as if he were the library of NHRA. I love the diversity that seems so easy for us while all other forms of motorsports struggle. I love seeing a guy like John Force start with literally nothing and become who he is... I love it all. In the end, the points are secondary, even tertiary, regardless of the way their collected.

I too love the sport and for many of the same reasons you state. The champ has always been important but not my driving force for going. Some of my favorites have never won the title, yet I still keep coming back. Its when they keep cramming the Cdown down our throats at this time of year that it really gets bad. I understand they need to sell it and now is when the alleged excitement should start but they go overkill, I swear Page gets a dollar every time he says the word countdown. Its one thing to sell and talk about something but when you have to sell it that hard it should tell you the product isn't all they claim it is.


I just like the race, drop the fake made for tv manufactured drama. This isn't a "reality" show. Let them race, may the best team win. If you aren't big enough to run then fix it, don't use a system that punishes dominance. I'll still go to the races but I've already dropped going to as many nhra races as I used to and my IHRA list grew this year.

I still hope Full Throttle will fix this. The new mantra of Go Full Throttle doesn't really match up with the countdown to well. You don't have to show up at all the races to be a contender, you don't have to even race other playoff teams to be the champ, you can lose more first rounds then you win all of which aren't of the Full throttle mentality. Ideally the new marketing/PR firm recognizes this as well. Especially when this fall they see the #1 qualifier, opps I spelled that wrong I mean Schumacher, get first rounds byes in the oh so exciting playoffs.



ya know I told myself to let it go this year, guess my wife is right, I don't listen to anybody

 

[none]

Another positive of the clowndown is that Dave (and others) can still get in front of potential sponsors and honestly say that coming on board after the season starts does not eliminate championship possibilities...........

 

["Chuck"]

it wasnt connollys fault that he missed 5 races, another victim of the torco disaster, plus you have to admit hes done some amazing stuff so far.

 

[Rajunz]

I would be willing to bet a few bucks that if Davey does win the championship, they will sh*t can the Countdown. What this would do is show everybody that you do not have to go to all of the races and still have a shot at the title. You think the fields are short now, just wait. There'd probably be five cars at the Winternationals in each pro class. Oh how I hope Davey wins it. The possibillities are endless.

Dave

Not very many teams are capable of pulling off what Connelly has done, so that holds no water. In actually, Dave's run at the top 10 is something that helps promote the countdown. Look at how much they've harped on his run this season.

And once again, the Countdown is a hell of alot more exciting that watching the $humachers, Anderson$, run away with another championship.

 

[Paul]

I am clearly in the minority, but I like the Countdown and the excitement it brings to the sport. Sure, traditionalists will not like a change like this, but this brings the NHRA to the same level as many other sports where it has a playoff system. At the end of the year, no matter what some of you say, the champs will be the teams who have the most points according to the rules. You can not fault any of the teams, since everyone is playing but the same points system. If Dave wins the title this year, good for him.

 

[Dave]

Not very many teams are capable of pulling off what Connelly has done, so that holds no water. In actually, Dave's run at the top 10 is something that helps promote the countdown. Look at how much they've harped on his run this season.

And once again, the Countdown is a hell of alot more exciting that watching the $humachers, Anderson$, run away with another championship.

I do agree with your last sentence. Watching paint dry is more exciting than watching Schumacher get another single.

I wasn't really b*tching about the Countdown, I was just saying how the Countdown concept is kinda backfiring in this case. I doubt this is what NHRA had in mind when they created it.

Dave

 

[PJ]

I am clearly in the minority, but I like the Countdown and the excitement it brings to the sport. Sure, traditionalists will not like a change like this, but this brings the NHRA to the same level as many other sports where it has a playoff system. At the end of the year, no matter what some of you say, the champs will be the teams who have the most points according to the rules. You can not fault any of the teams, since everyone is playing but the same points system. If Dave wins the title this year, good for him.

True they won under the rules at hand. Thats way I do not fault the teams last year that won, especially those that didn't have to beat any other playoff teams.

The part where it becomes the biggest joke and why it will always remain that is the fact that the playoff teams don't have to race each other. The Giants were not the best team all season last year BUT they at least had to beat the best in the playoffs, as much as I prefer a season long champ at least if they race each other its doable. If the NFL used our system then the Giants could have won the title by beating the Lions, Falcons and Bears last year instead of Dallas, New England and Green Bay.

If they insist on a playoff then at least have 8 qualify for the playoffs, put them one side of the ladder the other 8 spots are open qualifying. Ideally this avoids some diving (it will never be 100% gone) plus you get a true playoff then.
There would still be 16 (or close) car fields everyone's sponsors still get to be seen, although playoff teams would naturally receive more attention.

Compare a potential round 1 of a playoff race this year vs under my idea
This year.............. Idea
Tony S vs Bye or Tony S vs Herbert
Wilkerson vs Bartone or Wilkerson vs Capps

and so on

last year someone was able to walk away with the championship by only beating 1 other playoff team over the entire countdown. To me thats just not right and saps any value or excitement out of the championship and the countdown. Hell as much as I would prefer they go back to a true season long format if they drop the bs and let them race each other like I said then I'll drop my protest (not that they care I realize but I imagine a few of you are tired of it, even I'm tired of complaining about it

 

[d'kid]

PJ,
I'm with you 100%. Only thing to add is winners of both sides of ladder race each other for event title and winner's purse.

Side A 8 quickest countdown cars
Side B 8 quickest of the rest, even if it's the 9th and 10th countdown cars.

d'kid

 

[PJ]

PJ,
I'm with you 100%. Only thing to add is winners of both sides of ladder race each other for event title and winner's purse.

Side A 8 quickest countdown cars
Side B 8 quickest of the rest, even if it's the 9th and 10th countdown cars.

d'kid

Yes Yes, I guess I didn't explain it well. The playoff side would battle it out and the non playoff side would as well. The two left standing would race for the event title. Sure that still may not make some sense to those outside of the sport but its a much better place then the current mess.

Ideally they would offer up some type of prize money for whatever non playoff team scores the most over those final races as well

 

[Gordon]

PJ,
I'm with you 100%. Only thing to add is winners of both sides of ladder race each other for event title and winner's purse.

Side A 8 quickest countdown cars
Side B 8 quickest of the rest, even if it's the 9th and 10th countdown cars.

d'kid

... and start everyone back at zero points. Using PJ's analysis above, the Giants regular season record meant nothing when it came to the playoffs, other than loss of home field advantage (I happen to be a lifelong Giants fan, BTW) - which doesn't apply since everyone is racing at the same track every weekend. And neither did the Patriots regular season record matter when the Super Bowl was decided. Point? Everyone started with a clean slate. Lane choice will remain the same, of course. Also, consider that if you're racing eight car fields a driver can only earn 80 points per race rather than the current 100 - not counting qualifying points, which would also have to be altered slightly. I don't think the winner from the Countdown side of the ladder should gain points towards the championship racing a non-championship contender in the final.

 

[mick]

- victor c. has spent/built a 2car team that competes against the summit cars;
i don't like it as i am a summit fan, but who cares what i think - dave and jeg
are great drivers with a great team and fast cars.

- it is remarkable what dave has done having missed earlier races.

- for a sponsor starved series, there's been a few sponsors that have
received press lately where they may not have w/o the big C.
CSK / Quicklane / Old Spice / DHL / Mac Tools / UPS / Lucas
Valvoline, MTS .......and indy GM Perf. Parts / Valvoline
.......and of course Charter for their abreviated charge into the top 10.

IMO the Big "C" is just a much a sponsorship sales tool as it is a tool
to increase TV viewership.

 

[PJ]

- victor c. has spent/built a 2car team that competes against the summit cars;
i don't like it as i am a summit fan, but who cares what i think - dave and jeg
are great drivers with a great team and fast cars.

- it is remarkable what dave has done having missed earlier races.

- for a sponsor starved series, there's been a few sponsors that have
received press lately where they may not have w/o the big C.
CSK / Quicklane / Old Spice / DHL / Mac Tools / UPS / Lucas
Valvoline, MTS .......and indy GM Perf. Parts / Valvoline
.......and of course Charter for their abreviated charge into the top 10.

IMO the Big "C" is just a much a sponsorship sales tool as it is a tool
to increase TV viewership.

but in reverse then teams and sponsors that are doing better this year then get less press as the focus is on the "race for 10th"
Maybe its just the competitive athlete in me. I want to fight for #1 not aim for #10

 

[JFrechJr]

but in reverse then teams and sponsors that are doing better this year then get less press as the focus is on the "race for 10th"
Maybe its just the competitive athlete in me. I want to fight for #1 not aim for #10

I totally agree with you on this one however it does generate some excitement for fans and drivers. it is more exciting to see Grubby/Doug/Morgan duke it out for a couple races than just see that Shoe has a crazy lead week in and out, for example.

Plus the focus on 10th hasnt been too predominate until the past couple of races. I can stomach 2-3 even 4 races out of the season talking about a "race to 10th" because knowingly afterward its ALL going to be focused on #1. 2-9 wont mean anything except a number to throw on the car for next year.

 

[Sophia]

The countdown is entertaining to people who aren't heavily involved die hard fans. Those type of fans make up most of the TV viewers. Without them, there is no appeal for sponsors. Without the sponsors, no one races.

If we were on the old system, the TF season would be over right now. Where is the excitement in that? With the countdown, racers still have a show to put on and fans have something to look forward to. If we were on the old system I would just run my DVR and skip all the TF stuff. That doesn't help the companies that sponsor those cars.

My favorite driver is more than likely out because of the countdown, but it is a fair competition and he didn't perform as well as the others. Common WJ win Indy and break the Nat records and you are in there like swim wear

 

[PJ]

I totally agree with you on this one however it does generate some excitement for fans and drivers. it is more exciting to see Grubby/Doug/Morgan duke it out for a couple races than just see that Shoe has a crazy lead week in and out, for example.

Plus the focus on 10th hasnt been too predominate until the past couple of races. I can stomach 2-3 even 4 races out of the season talking about a "race to 10th" because knowingly afterward its ALL going to be focused on #1. 2-9 wont mean anything except a number to throw on the car for next year.

I can live with it IF they actually made the playoff teams race each other.

I don't believe it will ever be as good as the former system but I doubt they'll go back now so as long as it gets played out on the track against each other, I can play along

 

[PJ]

The countdown is entertaining to people who aren't heavily involved die hard fans. Those type of fans make up most of the TV viewers. Without them, there is no appeal for sponsors. Without the sponsors, no one races.D

There's one pitfall in that though, last year the ratings numbers were up during the regualr season. Ideally this supposed exciting countdown should have at least maintained them, although the goal was to create excitement and add even more. Not only did they not gain anymore over the countdown, they also were not able to maintain the numbers they had and went below.

Its hard for a novice to sit there watching a "playoff" that they are told is exciting yet the guy in 2nd and in the playoffs is racing the guy in 15th and not in the playoffs, meanwhile this other matchup has the guy in the 5th spot in the playoffs racing his teammate who is not, somehow people seem to know the outcome before the race. If I were a newbie I would question the legitimacy of a sport when it has such a messed up version of a championship.

 

[Frank]

Hey PJ, isn't this years version of the countdown different? They eliminated the countdown to 4 thing so now the last 6 races all 10 cars are racing for a shot at the title. Doesn't this factor right into what you're saying about the playoff cars racing each other? Sure, they're not all on the same side of the ladder like what you are saying, but surely the top dogs will be seeing each other at every race as the rounds go on don't you think? Let's look at Reading. In TF round 2, the 8 cars remaining were Schumacher, Bernstein, Fuller, Brown, Grubnic, Dixon, Lucas, and Millican. 6 of those are in now, and Lucas still has a shot. The semi's featured the top 3 of Schu, Dixon, and Brown. Isn't this an example of the top dogs racing each other? In FC, 6 of the 8 second rd cars are in the top 10 and 3 of the 4 semi finalists were as well. In PS it was 7 out of 8 and 4 out of 4 in the semi's.

I'm not saying I like the countdown, but I am saying the fact that they removed the countdown to 4 part means, that over the final 6 races, the top dogs will make it to the semi's and the finals so they will be in fact racing each other. If a spoiler like Hawley or Millican pops up, so be it, it will just make it a little more exciting I think. Just my thoughts.

 

[PJ]

Hey PJ, isn't this years version of the countdown different? They eliminated the countdown to 4 thing so now the last 6 races all 10 cars are racing for a shot at the title. Doesn't this factor right into what you're saying about the playoff cars racing each other? Sure, they're not all on the same side of the ladder like what you are saying, but surely the top dogs will be seeing each other at every race as the rounds go on don't you think? Let's look at Reading. In TF round 2, the 8 cars remaining were Schumacher, Bernstein, Fuller, Brown, Grubnic, Dixon, Lucas, and Millican. 6 of those are in now, and Lucas still has a shot. The semi's featured the top 3 of Schu, Dixon, and Brown. Isn't this an example of the top dogs racing each other? In FC, 6 of the 8 second rd cars are in the top 10 and 3 of the 4 semi finalists were as well. In PS it was 7 out of 8 and 4 out of 4 in the semi's.

I'm not saying I like the countdown, but I am saying the fact that they removed the countdown to 4 part means, that over the final 6 races, the top dogs will make it to the semi's and the finals so they will be in fact racing each other. If a spoiler like Hawley or Millican pops up, so be it, it will just make it a little more exciting I think. Just my thoughts.

it is better than last year but its still not right. My point that one of the champs last year only had to beat 1 of the playoff teams is the problem. That stat still counts those entire top 8 over those last 2 races where only 4 were actually in the hunt. Sure with 10 teams in the odds are better that playoff teams will face each other, especially with only 15 tf cars showing up. The point isn't that there will be no playoff matchups its that the championship can be won by simply by lucking out and not having to race the other contenders.

 

[Kelly]

Um, the thing I keep focusing on in the countdown....CAPPS CLINCHED!

Now, carry on.....