How high are PS engines winding now?

[none]

Alan said,

>>>>"I would think that if a customer called and said I want something and I'm willing to pay for it, they would at least quote you a price.

If you called my company and ask me to build something, if I could do the job, I would give you a price. If I couldn't do the job, I would tell you that and try to reccommend someone who could.

I would NEVER tell a customer "I can do that but I won't"<<<

That's simplifying the situation in a way that doesn't explain the rationale for what the price might be.

If a customer called you and asked you to develop something not in your inventory for THEIR CAR, your price would have to reflect what it cost you to design and manufacture that one part for that one car, plus a percentage for profit. $$$$$$$$$$ It would be expensive, because (for the sake of this argument), let's say that whatever you built was for an experiment on the customer's car, and it was a "banned" item (like the air springs) and the possibility of selling more simply didn't exist.

But, if it were an item that was NOT "banned," and it might have a "mass-appeal" market (within the limited confines of the drag racing "community,") you might have the distinct possibility of selling a LOT of these items in the future, and the R & D costs associated with the development mechanations could easily be amortized by "volume" sales to other customers.

That scenario will not exist, as long as NHRA sees fit to "ban" these pneumatic springs from competition.

So, Del West would likely have no interest in developing same... no market.

What did Warren have to say about his involvement with pneumatic springs?

How about Pro Mods? IHBA? Offshore power boats? Outlaw Pro stockers? Tractor Pullers? I would think that if you could make the system for $2,400.00 there are people that would buy it, even if it's not allowed in NHRA.

Keep in mind N2O built a heck of an industry without being allowed in NHRA.

I also don't believe that MOPAR could get a part outlawed. My guess would be that at the time it was considerably more expensive than conventional springs, But I will ask the question when I get to Brainerd.

Alan

 

[Toby]

Let us know what the old man has to tell you...try to hit him up before to many of Arlenes Margs.

How about Pro Mods? IHBA? Offshore power boats? Outlaw Pro stockers? Tractor Pullers? I would think that if you could make the system for $2,400.00 there are people that would buy it, even if it's not allowed in NHRA.

Keep in mind N2O built a heck of an industry without being allowed in NHRA.

I also don't believe that MOPAR could get a part outlawed. My guess would be that at the time it was considerably more expensive than conventional springs, But I will ask the question when I get to Brainerd.

Alan

 

[Bill]

I will ask the question when I get to Brainerd.

Alan

Thanks, Alan; nothing like going right to the source!!!

Bill

 

[chop]

Thanks, Alan; nothing like going right to the source!!!

Bill

Where do you think I got it from? I don't sit around and make this stuff up. If WJ tells Alan the same thing he told me,I'm due an apology.

 

[willy]

Where do you think I got it from? I don't sit around and make this stuff up. If WJ tells Alan the same thing he told me,I'm due an apology.

My bet is 'it will be the same' Mike. Always appreciate it, too.

 

[Bill]

Mike, what you said was: "WJ said he perfected the pneumatic system in '92,Mopar had NHRA outlaw it."

You never even implied that he told that directly to you,
much less said it.

Your words were:he "said" it.

I don't know who you are; I can tell you a lot of things that WJ has said over the years, but he didn't tell them to ME. I got them second-hand.

So, the answer to your question, "Where do you think I got this..." is:
I had no idea where you got it.. How could I know? You can read ANYTHING on the internet; you know that.

If you'd said, "WJ told ME," then I certainly wouldn't have asked Alan to query Warren on the subject, because to ME, what you said made perfect sense, and was exactly what I believed to be the truth. It sounded precisely like what I would have expected Warren to have said.

I have been trying to explain what little I know about pneumatic springs in the face of monumental skepticism from lots of folks here, who, understandably, think that if they're so great, why aren't they in use?.... and then, proceed to envision all sorts of doomsday scenarios that might be the reason why they are nowhere to be found; excessive expense, mechanical failures, etc... And, that's not hard to understand.

But in fact, I am only really concerned about the NHRA ban on these things; I don't care a whit if no Pro Stock team EVER installs them on an engine.... I just want to know why an Alky Funny Car owner, running out of his own pocket, can't take advantage of what I really believe would be a significant cut in valve train expense with the use of "air springs."

If Warren told that directly to you (and, it surely seems he did), then I hereby apologize all over the place for not taking that into consideration when I asked Alan to bring it up with WJ. I just didn't know...

I'm sorry.

Bill

 

[Outlaw Eric]

Okay, David Reher told me not too long ago that they could get 4 - 5 passes out of a set of springs. Let's just call it 4 and say you qualify and win every race in a 24-race season (which is ridiculous, obviously). That would equal 48-sets of springs, and at a clip of 100-grand per year (the quote was actually "over 100,000") that makes the springs over 2-grand per set. I understand there's minimal amounts of testing and dyno pulls, but let's face it; my example was the most extreme there could be.

What am I missing here? Something doesn't add up.

Sean D

Sean, don't let logic and math get in the way of a good discussion...

EDB

 

[chop]

Mike, what you said was: "WJ said he perfected the pneumatic system in '92,Mopar had NHRA outlaw it."

You never even implied that he told that directly to you,
much less said it.

Your words were:he "said" it.

I don't know who you are; I can tell you a lot of things that WJ has said over the years, but he didn't tell them to ME. I got them second-hand.

So, the answer to your question, "Where do you think I got this..." is:
I had no idea where you got it.. How could I know? You can read ANYTHING on the internet; you know that.

If you'd said, "WJ told ME," then I certainly wouldn't have asked Alan to query Warren on the subject, because to ME, what you said made perfect sense, and was exactly what I believed to be the truth. It sounded precisely like what I would have expected Warren to have said.

I have been trying to explain what little I know about pneumatic springs in the face of monumental skepticism from lots of folks here, who, understandably, think that if they're so great, why aren't they in use?.... and then, proceed to envision all sorts of doomsday scenarios that might be the reason why they are nowhere to be found; excessive expense, mechanical failures, etc... And, that's not hard to understand.

But in fact, I am only really concerned about the NHRA ban on these things; I don't care a whit if no Pro Stock team EVER installs them on an engine.... I just want to know why an Alky Funny Car owner, running out of his own pocket, can't take advantage of what I really believe would be a significant cut in valve train expense with the use of "air springs."

If Warren told that directly to you (and, it surely seems he did), then I hereby apologize all over the place for not taking that into consideration when I asked Alan to bring it up with WJ. I just didn't know...

I'm sorry.

Bill

It came straight from WJ as of about 4 PM CST yesterday. I called to get a post Western swing report from Arlene and WJ answered the phone. We got to BS'ing and I thought about this discussion and asked him about it. The rest of the story is as posted. I may have got the cost of the system wrong,he could have meant it was $2400.00 in 92 or it could be now. I'm sure the roving pit reporter Alan will get the scoop, right? As far as the part about Mopar getting it banned and Alan not thinking that was possible,there's "innovations" to this day that get nipped in the bud by different sources. You don't owe me an apology,didn't you see the ?

 

[Sean D, shondoo]

Sean, don't let logic and math get in the way of a good discussion...

EDB

I hear ya, EDB! I guess that's why it hasn't been addressed yet. Furthermore, if you make all four qualifying sessions and averaged 2-rounds for the entire year, the price tag for each set (based off of what Reher told me) close to $2,800.

The point I'm trying to make is that I make springs for a living. I've done so for over 20-years so I know the costs involved with making them. We don't touch titanium (for good reason), but when I talked to Reher (and Maskin was standing right there), the springs in question were steel, so I'm making an assumption that they're still running steel springs. Regardless, even titanium springs don't cost 3-grand, and regardless of their very unpredictable failure modes, still usually last longer than steel springs in severe applications like Pro Stock and Top Alcohol, which would make my original example even worse.

If these guys are paying this kind of money for steel springs....................

Sean D

 

[chop]

I hear ya, EDB! I guess that's why it hasn't been addressed yet. Furthermore, if you make all four qualifying sessions and averaged 2-rounds for the entire year, the price tag for each set (based off of what Reher told me) close to $2,800.

The point I'm trying to make is that I make springs for a living. I've done so for over 20-years so I know the costs involved with making them. We don't touch titanium (for good reason), but when I talked to Reher (and Maskin was standing right there), the springs in question were steel, so I'm making an assumption that they're still running steel springs. Regardless, even titanium springs don't cost 3-grand, and regardless of their very unpredictable failure modes, still usually last longer than steel springs in severe applications like Pro Stock and Top Alcohol, which would make my original example even worse.

If these guys are paying this kind of money for steel springs....................

Sean D

How about the many dyno pulls,test runs and spares? Ever consider there might be two cars to buy springs for? Do you make springs for P/S'ers? Just trying to get the facts.

 

[Sean D, shondoo]

How about the many dyno pulls,test runs and spares? Ever consider there might be two cars to buy springs for? Do you make springs for P/S'ers? Just trying to get the facts.

There we go!!! I guess I just had to rattle your cage more than once, huh Mike?!

If you read my original post, I mention the testing and dyno pulls, Mike. But my example was worst case scenario of all four qualifying runs and all four rounds on every Sunday, which we all know is ridiculous and would likely offset the testing and dyno pulls, but I don't know.

No, we don't make any valve springs as of yet, but making springs is our business so it's not like it's hard. The difficulties associated with making valve springs has nothing to do with the processes or materials. It's the design of the springs themselves and their ultimate application. Valve springs are nothing more than what we in the spring business run into every single day. Engineers come to us with a design that is virtually done and say "put a spring here", and there is usually no room for a practical, low stress spring. These applications we're talking about are no different. For Pete's sake, passenger car valve springs are overstressed! Most people think that springs in passenger cars last forever because they're not overstressed. However, depending on the application, most cars stop performing at peak power between 25,000 and 50,000 miles and a percentage of that loss is attributable to the valve springs.

High performance valve springs are made out of nothing more than super high tensile steel available to anyone in the industry. In today's day and age, the thing that separates the men from the boys in mostly marketing. I hear all this crap over the past 5 years or so about "dual point coiling", "shot peening", "electropolishing", "down-feed grinding", blah, blah, blah. Some of these guys advertise this stuff as cutting edge, but that technology is old enough to vote for crying out loud. We all can get the same material, we all have good machines, we all have the ability or access to good post processes and we all have good people working for us. But guess what? The springs are still going to wear out fast in a Pro Stocker and sometimes even break. The envelope for which the springs needs to perform in is simply too small, period.

I'm still baffled by the cost. I would like to know exactly how many runs these guys are getting on their springs these days. I know what Reher and Maskin told me a few years ago, but I would like to know what the deal is right now and just what they're spending on these springs.

Sean D

 

[chop]

There we go!!! I guess I just had to rattle your cage more than once, huh Mike?!

If you read my original post, I mention the testing and dyno pulls, Mike. But my example was worst case scenario of all four qualifying runs and all four rounds on every Sunday, which we all know is ridiculous and would likely offset the testing and dyno pulls, but I don't know.

No, we don't make any valve springs as of yet, but making springs is our business so it's not like it's hard. The difficulties associated with making valve springs has nothing to do with the processes or materials. It's the design of the springs themselves and their ultimate application. Valve springs are nothing more than what we in the spring business run into every single day. Engineers come to us with a design that is virtually done and say "put a spring here", and there is usually no room for a practical, low stress spring. These applications we're talking about are no different. For Pete's sake, passenger car valve springs are overstressed! Most people think that springs in passenger cars last forever because they're not overstressed. However, depending on the application, most cars stop performing at peak power between 25,000 and 50,000 miles and a percentage of that loss is attributable to the valve springs.

High performance valve springs are made out of nothing more than super high tensile steel available to anyone in the industry. In today's day and age, the thing that separates the men from the boys in mostly marketing. I hear all this crap over the past 5 years or so about "dual point coiling", "shot peening", "electropolishing", "down-feed grinding", blah, blah, blah. Some of these guys advertise this stuff as cutting edge, but that technology is old enough to vote for crying out loud. We all can get the same material, we all have good machines, we all have the ability or access to good post processes and we all have good people working for us. But guess what? The springs are still going to wear out fast in a Pro Stocker and sometimes even break. The envelope for which the springs needs to perform in is simply too small, period.

I'm still baffled by the cost. I would like to know exactly how many runs these guys are getting on their springs these days. I know what Reher and Maskin told me a few years ago, but I would like to know what the deal is right now and just what they're spending on these springs.

Sean D

I was responding to your last post about basing it on 4 qualifying runs + two rounds. I don't know if we will ever know exactly what the deal/cost involved with the springs really is. I'm almost sorry I posted anything about this,always seems it turns in to a pi$$ing match.

 

[Sean D, shondoo]

I was responding to your last post about basing it on 4 qualifying runs + two rounds. I don't know if we will ever know exactly what the deal/cost involved with the springs really is. I'm almost sorry I posted anything about this,always seems it turns in to a pi$$ing match.

No, no, no..

Mike, I meant nothing by it. As a spring manufacturer whose product line is evolving into valve springs, I"m actually very curious.

Mike, I meant no offense so please, keep bringing information.

Sean D

 

[none]

Mike,

I also didn't know that you were getting it straight from Warren. Sorry if I hurt your feelings. I hope that doesn't put a damper on the discussion.

I just got off the phone with him. (Why wait until Brainerd?) He did say what Mike said about MOPAR lobbying NHRA to keep the air springs out. He said that the system he developed was almost foolproof. I should have ask if he would have been willing to share. If he had the system and nobody else did I can see the other teams not wanting him to be allowed to run it. But if it was commercially available, I don't see a down side. I asked if maybe it was time to have Pro Stock as a group approach NHRA about changing the rule to allow it now and he said that might be possible.

The $2,400.00 figure was in 1992 dollars, I believe at the time springs were about $200.00 a set. In today’s money it would be 4,500 to 5,000 dollars per set, but it would still seem to me that it would be very cost effective in the long run. Warren said he was getting 5 to 6 runs on a set of springs now but the expense is pretty great and avoiding the headache of having to check and change them would be worth as much as the cost savings.

I would still like to hear a logical explanation as to why nobody apparantly makes and sells them. Even without being allowed in NHRA at this time, I would think there is a market for them.

Alan

 

[Toby]

Here you go Alan
ClearTrack Sports Contents

Toby Graham
DragTraction.Com

Mike,

I also didn't know that you were getting it straight from Warren. Sorry if I hurt your feelings. I hope that doesn't put a damper on the discussion.

I just got off the phone with him. (Why wait until Brainerd?) He did say what Mike said about MOPAR lobbying NHRA to keep the air springs out. He said that the system he developed was almost foolproof. I should have ask if he would have been willing to share. If he had the system and nobody else did I can see the other teams not wanting him to be allowed to run it. But if it was commercially available, I don't see a down side. I asked if maybe it was time to have Pro Stock as a group approach NHRA about changing the rule to allow it now and he said that might be possible.

The $2,400.00 figure was in 1992 dollars, I believe at the time springs were about $200.00 a set. In today’s money it would be 4,500 to 5,000 dollars per set, but it would still seem to me that it would be very cost effective in the long run. Warren said he was getting 5 to 6 runs on a set of springs now but the expense is pretty great and avoiding the headache of having to check and change them would be worth as much as the cost savings.

I would still like to hear a logical explanation as to why nobody apparantly makes and sells them. Even without being allowed in NHRA at this time, I would think there is a market for them.

Alan

 

[chop]

Mike,

I also didn't know that you were getting it straight from Warren. Sorry if I hurt your feelings. I hope that doesn't put a damper on the discussion.

I just got off the phone with him. (Why wait until Brainerd?) He did say what Mike said about MOPAR lobbying NHRA to keep the air springs out. He said that the system he developed was almost foolproof. I should have ask if he would have been willing to share. If he had the system and nobody else did I can see the other teams not wanting him to be allowed to run it. But if it was commercially available, I don't see a down side. I asked if maybe it was time to have Pro Stock as a group approach NHRA about changing the rule to allow it now and he said that might be possible.

The $2,400.00 figure was in 1992 dollars, I believe at the time springs were about $200.00 a set. In today’s money it would be 4,500 to 5,000 dollars per set, but it would still seem to me that it would be very cost effective in the long run. Warren said he was getting 5 to 6 runs on a set of springs now but the expense is pretty great and avoiding the headache of having to check and change them would be worth as much as the cost savings.

I would still like to hear a logical explanation as to why nobody apparantly makes and sells them. Even without being allowed in NHRA at this time, I would think there is a market for them.

Alan

Alan

No,you haven't hurt my feelings @ all,I'm a big boy and can take it. I now realize I should have said that WJ had told me this and maybe that would have cleared it up. I'm with you,somebody should be making these and selling them. I don't know if WJ has the time to market them but P/S would be a great place to start don't cha think?

 

[Bill]

Alan,

Thanks a LOT for the time you took to call Warren Johnson and get the straight skinny on his involvement in this deal.

What you learned was very enlightening, I think. I REALLY appreciate that information.

BTW, I looked up the inflation factor on the dollar figure in an online "cost of living calculator" (Cost-of-Living Calculator) and it contends that $2,400.00 in 1992 is equal to $3632.00, now...

This is really GREAT, gradually getting to the bottom of this NHRA ban....

Thanks again!

Bill

 

[Sean D, shondoo]

I, too, appreciate you getting the straight-poop from the man himself, Alan. Even though the discussion revolves around obsoleting springs, it's good information to have. LOL!!!

Thanks again for the effort.

Sean D

 

[chop]

Alan

Thanks for confirming my post,I hate it when I'm right. Next time I tell you guys that a rooster can pull a freight train, better put a harness on him because when the whistle blows,he's pullin out.

 

[Bill]

Mike,

You got it, bud!!!

Bill