Let us know what the old man has to tell you...try to hit him up before to many of Arlenes Margs.
Nitromater
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How high are PS engines winding now?
- Thread starter 5.0 Junkie
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Bill
Nitro Member
Thanks, Alan; nothing like going right to the source!!!
Bill
Where do you think I got it from? I don't sit around and make this stuff up. If WJ tells Alan the same thing he told me,I'm due an apology.
willy
Nitro Member
My bet is 'it will be the same' Mike. Always appreciate it, too.Where do you think I got it from? I don't sit around and make this stuff up. If WJ tells Alan the same thing he told me,I'm due an apology.
Bill
Nitro Member
Mike, what you said was: "WJ said he perfected the pneumatic system in '92,Mopar had NHRA outlaw it."
You never even implied that he told that directly to you,
much less said it.
Your words were:he "said" it.
I don't know who you are; I can tell you a lot of things that WJ has said over the years, but he didn't tell them to ME. I got them second-hand.
So, the answer to your question, "Where do you think I got this..." is:
I had no idea where you got it.. How could I know? You can read ANYTHING on the internet; you know that.
If you'd said, "WJ told ME," then I certainly wouldn't have asked Alan to query Warren on the subject, because to ME, what you said made perfect sense, and was exactly what I believed to be the truth. It sounded precisely like what I would have expected Warren to have said.
I have been trying to explain what little I know about pneumatic springs in the face of monumental skepticism from lots of folks here, who, understandably, think that if they're so great, why aren't they in use?.... and then, proceed to envision all sorts of doomsday scenarios that might be the reason why they are nowhere to be found; excessive expense, mechanical failures, etc... And, that's not hard to understand.
But in fact, I am only really concerned about the NHRA ban on these things; I don't care a whit if no Pro Stock team EVER installs them on an engine.... I just want to know why an Alky Funny Car owner, running out of his own pocket, can't take advantage of what I really believe would be a significant cut in valve train expense with the use of "air springs."
If Warren told that directly to you (and, it surely seems he did), then I hereby apologize all over the place for not taking that into consideration when I asked Alan to bring it up with WJ. I just didn't know...
I'm sorry.
Bill
You never even implied that he told that directly to you,
much less said it.
Your words were:he "said" it.
I don't know who you are; I can tell you a lot of things that WJ has said over the years, but he didn't tell them to ME. I got them second-hand.
So, the answer to your question, "Where do you think I got this..." is:
I had no idea where you got it.. How could I know? You can read ANYTHING on the internet; you know that.
If you'd said, "WJ told ME," then I certainly wouldn't have asked Alan to query Warren on the subject, because to ME, what you said made perfect sense, and was exactly what I believed to be the truth. It sounded precisely like what I would have expected Warren to have said.
I have been trying to explain what little I know about pneumatic springs in the face of monumental skepticism from lots of folks here, who, understandably, think that if they're so great, why aren't they in use?.... and then, proceed to envision all sorts of doomsday scenarios that might be the reason why they are nowhere to be found; excessive expense, mechanical failures, etc... And, that's not hard to understand.
But in fact, I am only really concerned about the NHRA ban on these things; I don't care a whit if no Pro Stock team EVER installs them on an engine.... I just want to know why an Alky Funny Car owner, running out of his own pocket, can't take advantage of what I really believe would be a significant cut in valve train expense with the use of "air springs."
If Warren told that directly to you (and, it surely seems he did), then I hereby apologize all over the place for not taking that into consideration when I asked Alan to bring it up with WJ. I just didn't know...
I'm sorry.
Bill
Outlaw Eric
Nitro Member
It came straight from WJ as of about 4 PM CST yesterday. I called to get a post Western swing report from Arlene and WJ answered the phone. We got to BS'ing and I thought about this discussion and asked him about it. The rest of the story is as posted. I may have got the cost of the system wrong,he could have meant it was $2400.00 in 92 or it could be now. I'm sure the roving pit reporter Alan will get the scoop, right? As far as the part about Mopar getting it banned and Alan not thinking that was possible,there's "innovations" to this day that get nipped in the bud by different sources. You don't owe me an apology,didn't you see the
?
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Sean D, shondoo
Nitro Member
Sean, don't let logic and math get in the way of a good discussion...
EDB
I hear ya, EDB! I guess that's why it hasn't been addressed yet. Furthermore, if you make all four qualifying sessions and averaged 2-rounds for the entire year, the price tag for each set (based off of what Reher told me) close to $2,800.
The point I'm trying to make is that I make springs for a living. I've done so for over 20-years so I know the costs involved with making them. We don't touch titanium (for good reason), but when I talked to Reher (and Maskin was standing right there), the springs in question were steel, so I'm making an assumption that they're still running steel springs. Regardless, even titanium springs don't cost 3-grand, and regardless of their very unpredictable failure modes, still usually last longer than steel springs in severe applications like Pro Stock and Top Alcohol, which would make my original example even worse.
If these guys are paying this kind of money for steel springs....................
Sean D
How about the many dyno pulls,test runs and spares? Ever consider there might be two cars to buy springs for? Do you make springs for P/S'ers? Just trying to get the facts.
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Sean D, shondoo
Nitro Member
There we go!!! I guess I just had to rattle your cage more than once, huh Mike?!
If you read my original post, I mention the testing and dyno pulls, Mike. But my example was worst case scenario of all four qualifying runs and all four rounds on every Sunday, which we all know is ridiculous and would likely offset the testing and dyno pulls, but I don't know.
No, we don't make any valve springs as of yet, but making springs is our business so it's not like it's hard. The difficulties associated with making valve springs has nothing to do with the processes or materials. It's the design of the springs themselves and their ultimate application. Valve springs are nothing more than what we in the spring business run into every single day. Engineers come to us with a design that is virtually done and say "put a spring here", and there is usually no room for a practical, low stress spring. These applications we're talking about are no different. For Pete's sake, passenger car valve springs are overstressed! Most people think that springs in passenger cars last forever because they're not overstressed. However, depending on the application, most cars stop performing at peak power between 25,000 and 50,000 miles and a percentage of that loss is attributable to the valve springs.
High performance valve springs are made out of nothing more than super high tensile steel available to anyone in the industry. In today's day and age, the thing that separates the men from the boys in mostly marketing. I hear all this crap over the past 5 years or so about "dual point coiling", "shot peening", "electropolishing", "down-feed grinding", blah, blah, blah. Some of these guys advertise this stuff as cutting edge, but that technology is old enough to vote for crying out loud. We all can get the same material, we all have good machines, we all have the ability or access to good post processes and we all have good people working for us. But guess what? The springs are still going to wear out fast in a Pro Stocker and sometimes even break. The envelope for which the springs needs to perform in is simply too small, period.
I'm still baffled by the cost. I would like to know exactly how many runs these guys are getting on their springs these days. I know what Reher and Maskin told me a few years ago, but I would like to know what the deal is right now and just what they're spending on these springs.
Sean D
I was responding to your last post about basing it on 4 qualifying runs + two rounds. I don't know if we will ever know exactly what the deal/cost involved with the springs really is. I'm almost sorry I posted anything about this,always seems it turns in to a pi$$ing match.
Sean D, shondoo
Nitro Member
I was responding to your last post about basing it on 4 qualifying runs + two rounds. I don't know if we will ever know exactly what the deal/cost involved with the springs really is. I'm almost sorry I posted anything about this,always seems it turns in to a pi$$ing match.
No, no, no..
Mike, I meant nothing by it. As a spring manufacturer whose product line is evolving into valve springs, I"m actually very curious.
Mike, I meant no offense so please, keep bringing information.
Sean D
none
Nitro Member
Mike,
I also didn't know that you were getting it straight from Warren. Sorry if I hurt your feelings. I hope that doesn't put a damper on the discussion.
I just got off the phone with him. (Why wait until Brainerd?) He did say what Mike said about MOPAR lobbying NHRA to keep the air springs out. He said that the system he developed was almost foolproof. I should have ask if he would have been willing to share. If he had the system and nobody else did I can see the other teams not wanting him to be allowed to run it. But if it was commercially available, I don't see a down side. I asked if maybe it was time to have Pro Stock as a group approach NHRA about changing the rule to allow it now and he said that might be possible.
The $2,400.00 figure was in 1992 dollars, I believe at the time springs were about $200.00 a set. In today’s money it would be 4,500 to 5,000 dollars per set, but it would still seem to me that it would be very cost effective in the long run. Warren said he was getting 5 to 6 runs on a set of springs now but the expense is pretty great and avoiding the headache of having to check and change them would be worth as much as the cost savings.
I would still like to hear a logical explanation as to why nobody apparantly makes and sells them. Even without being allowed in NHRA at this time, I would think there is a market for them.
Alan
I also didn't know that you were getting it straight from Warren. Sorry if I hurt your feelings. I hope that doesn't put a damper on the discussion.
I just got off the phone with him. (Why wait until Brainerd?) He did say what Mike said about MOPAR lobbying NHRA to keep the air springs out. He said that the system he developed was almost foolproof. I should have ask if he would have been willing to share. If he had the system and nobody else did I can see the other teams not wanting him to be allowed to run it. But if it was commercially available, I don't see a down side. I asked if maybe it was time to have Pro Stock as a group approach NHRA about changing the rule to allow it now and he said that might be possible.
The $2,400.00 figure was in 1992 dollars, I believe at the time springs were about $200.00 a set. In today’s money it would be 4,500 to 5,000 dollars per set, but it would still seem to me that it would be very cost effective in the long run. Warren said he was getting 5 to 6 runs on a set of springs now but the expense is pretty great and avoiding the headache of having to check and change them would be worth as much as the cost savings.
I would still like to hear a logical explanation as to why nobody apparantly makes and sells them. Even without being allowed in NHRA at this time, I would think there is a market for them.
Alan
Alan
No,you haven't hurt my feelings @ all,I'm a big boy and can take it. I now realize I should have said that WJ had told me this and maybe that would have cleared it up. I'm with you,somebody should be making these and selling them. I don't know if WJ has the time to market them but P/S would be a great place to start don't cha think?
Bill
Nitro Member
Alan,
Thanks a LOT for the time you took to call Warren Johnson and get the straight skinny on his involvement in this deal.
What you learned was very enlightening, I think. I REALLY appreciate that information.
BTW, I looked up the inflation factor on the dollar figure in an online "cost of living calculator" (Cost-of-Living Calculator) and it contends that $2,400.00 in 1992 is equal to $3632.00, now...
This is really GREAT, gradually getting to the bottom of this NHRA ban....
Thanks again!
Bill
Thanks a LOT for the time you took to call Warren Johnson and get the straight skinny on his involvement in this deal.
What you learned was very enlightening, I think. I REALLY appreciate that information.
BTW, I looked up the inflation factor on the dollar figure in an online "cost of living calculator" (Cost-of-Living Calculator) and it contends that $2,400.00 in 1992 is equal to $3632.00, now...
This is really GREAT, gradually getting to the bottom of this NHRA ban....
Thanks again!
Bill
Sean D, shondoo
Nitro Member
I, too, appreciate you getting the straight-poop from the man himself, Alan. Even though the discussion revolves around obsoleting springs, it's good information to have. LOL!!!
Thanks again for the effort.
Sean D
Thanks again for the effort.
Sean D
Nick because of what you stated above, how does the future of prostock racing look now that most of the car companies have cut prostock out of their budget, parts are becoming more expensive, r&d costs money, and NHRA does not do the best job in giving prostockers there share of the tv tube (which does not help secure sponsors).
I know there is a lot of money in prostock but not everyone can run on their own dime and for how long. I am figuring to be a competive team on the tour you need at least $5million to run the series if not more, may be you can touch on how much a team spends during the year.
Before anyone says anything, prostock is my favorite class and i use to race stock eliminator.
