How high are PS engines winding now?

[Sean D, shondoo]

All this talk about replacing the springs has this ol' spring manufacturer feeling pretty down.

I understand the theory and/or concerns, but I sure hope they keep using springs.

Sean D

 

[DaveRenk]

All this talk about replacing the springs has this ol' spring manufacturer feeling pretty down.

I understand the theory and/or concerns, but I sure hope they keep using springs.

Sean D

Sean:

Seems that I remember some springs walking out the back door at the Rockwell plant years ago. You remember anything about that?

 

[Sean D, shondoo]

Sean:

Seems that I remember some springs walking out the back door at the Rockwell plant years ago. You remember anything about that?

Uh......years ago??? I'm not so sure that kind of thing doesn't still happen! LOL!!! There's quite a few racers in this area, as you know.

Fortunately, for me, I work for the group across town at Myers Spring Company. We're a much smaller company with a much smaller product line, but we're more than large enough to produce valve springs, which we're currently pursuing.

Sean D

 

[sdwarf36]

Sheman;

I have worked on PS engines that used 5/8th inch diameter pushrods, and they were not light. But they could still make power enough to be shifted at 10200 RPM.

Jim

OMG!! I get P.Oed when I got to make clearance for 7/16" pushrods!

 

[The Counterfeiter]

Here's the plan . . . we pick a Mater with HUGE P/S cred (someone who has actually worked on and/or driven a P/S) and have him call Del West Engineering - (800) 990-2779. Should be easy enough to get a quote on developing pneumatic systems for three makes of P/S motors. Then we'll have numbers to crunch to see how much money this can save. -

Any volunteers? -

 

[Toby]

I tried about a year ago for the hell of it. They wouldn't really discuss it. Worth another call for entertainment though.

Here's the plan . . . we pick a Mater with HUGE P/S cred (someone who has actually worked on and/or driven a P/S) and have him call Del West Engineering - (800) 990-2779. Should be easy enough to get a quote on developing pneumatic systems for three makes of P/S motors. Then we'll have numbers to crunch to see how much money this can save. -

Any volunteers? -

 

[quarterpounder]

I tried about a year ago for the hell of it. They wouldn't really discuss it. Worth another call for entertainment though.

Hey Toby:

I volunteer ........... Nick. He should have a lot of pull.


LOL
Jim

 

[Bill]

Here's the plan . . . we pick a Mater with HUGE P/S cred (someone who has actually worked on and/or driven a P/S) and have him call Del West Engineering - (800) 990-2779. Should be easy enough to get a quote on developing pneumatic systems for three makes of P/S motors. Then we'll have numbers to crunch to see how much money this can save. -

Any volunteers? -

Jim,

Do you think Del West Engineering will be interested in developing a system for P/S motors to run on cars in races in an organization that is ruled by an iron fist, and has THIS language in its rulebook:

"Valvetrain must incorporate conventional automotive coil spring design. Pneumatic-type valvetrains are prohibited in all classes"

Why would they? Who would they sell them to? Nobody's allowed to use them on ANY car in competition.

For what logical reason did NHRA do this?

THAT was supposed to be the purpose of my discussion of this; not whether pneumatic springs are better, or, even cheaper. I think the F-I situation pretty much proves that when metal springs won't do, the air springs are the next step.

I wasn't even contending that they'd work better... just last longer... a LOT longer, I'd guess.

But the question I posed was, "WHY are pneumatic springs outlawed in all classes of NHRA drag racing?"

I still have no idea... Warren Johnson probably knows, though. Maybe he'll tell Alan something at Brainerd that we can chew on in this forum...
I hope so!

PS: I am not sure that filling them with nitrogen instead of simple, compressed air, would be necessary, but, what do I know...

I'm sure that the F-I systems have to maximize all the technology that can ensure that these "air" springs will work for many, many, miles without significant performance degradation, and utilizing an inert gas like nitrogen might help, but for an engine that is under power for less than 8 seconds, plain old compressed air might work just as well.

 

[d'kid]

Bill,
Clean, dry gas. Compressed Air is neither. By the time you ran enough air through multi stages of Purification Cartridges, bulk, then repeatedly finer elements, just getting Nitrogen would be as cost effective. And the side advantage of some cooling. And, as a side note, does anyone know what PSI the 'gas spring' system runs at?

and you also have the 'golly gosh' factor of 'gee, how did that NOS get plumbed into the system?'

d'kid

 

[Gary H]

Another quick question.... what happens if a valve breaks or the keepers fail?

 

[none]

Jim,

Do you think Del West Engineering will be interested in developing a system for P/S motors to run on cars in races in an organization that is ruled by an iron fist, and has THIS language in its rulebook

I would think that if a customer called and said I want something and I'm willing to pay for it, they would at least quote you a price.

If you called my company and ask me to build something, if I could do the job, I would give you a price. If I couldn't do the job, I would tell you that and try to recomend someone who could.

I would NEVER tell a customer "I can do that but I won't"

Alan

 

[john]

Another quick question.... what happens if a valve breaks or the keepers fail?

The usual carnage.

 

[Gary H]

The usual carnage.

Yeah, inside the engine, but what happens to the nitrogen line? And would the actuator launch like a small rocket with the jet of nitrogen comming out of the hole where the valve was? And do they use liquid nitrogen, or is it just compressed?

 

[Bill]

Alan said,

>>>>"I would think that if a customer called and said I want something and I'm willing to pay for it, they would at least quote you a price.

If you called my company and ask me to build something, if I could do the job, I would give you a price. If I couldn't do the job, I would tell you that and try to reccommend someone who could.

I would NEVER tell a customer "I can do that but I won't"<<<

That's simplifying the situation in a way that doesn't explain the rationale for what the price might be.

If a customer called you and asked you to develop something not in your inventory for THEIR CAR, your price would have to reflect what it cost you to design and manufacture that one part for that one car, plus a percentage for profit. $$$$$$$$$$ It would be expensive, because (for the sake of this argument), let's say that whatever you built was for an experiment on the customer's car, and it was a "banned" item (like the air springs) and the possibility of selling more simply didn't exist.

But, if it were an item that was NOT "banned," and it might have a "mass-appeal" market (within the limited confines of the drag racing "community,") you might have the distinct possibility of selling a LOT of these items in the future, and the R & D costs associated with the development mechanations could easily be amortized by "volume" sales to other customers.

That scenario will not exist, as long as NHRA sees fit to "ban" these pneumatic springs from competition.

So, Del West would likely have no interest in developing same... no market.

What did Warren have to say about his involvement with pneumatic springs?

 

[chop]

What did Warren have to say about his involvement with pneumatic springs?

WJ said he perfected the pneumatic system in 92,Mopar had NHRA outlaw it. The cost would be appox. $2,400.00 and throw 16 seals in it once in a while and there you go. Cost of valve springs is over a $100K a year,go figure.

 

[Professor Dave]

I would NEVER tell a customer "I can do that but I won't"

Alan

That's only because you want your business to survive and turn a profit!

 

[Bill]

Yeah, inside the engine, but what happens to the nitrogen line? And would the actuator launch like a small rocket with the jet of nitrogen comming out of the hole where the valve was? And do they use liquid nitrogen, or is it just compressed?

What "actuator"?

There is no "actuator,' just a metal cylinder with a piston in it, the size of a valve spring that would be attached to the head, either by screwing into a threaded socket or by attaching brackets. Whatever compresed gas that was inside it would just dissipate into the atmosphere immediately.

I don't see where nitrogen would be necessary on this application. If the cylinders for the "springs" were made from stanless steel, so the moisture in the compressed air wouldn't rust them, why would nitrogen be necessary?
This thing is only going to be under high-rpm stress for a few seconds... totally unlike the F-I pneumatic springs that have to last for hundreds of miles and for hours on end...

 

[Bill]

WJ said he perfected the pneumatic system in 92,Mopar had NHRA outlaw it. The cost would be appox. $2,400.00 and throw 16 seals in it once in a while and there you go. Cost of valve springs is over a $100K a year,go figure.

Thanks, Mike. I guess all the Alky Funny Car racers, and Alcohol Dragster racers (and, Comp cars, too) have MoPar to thank for thir egregious valve spring bills.
Warren had it right... sounds like.

 

[john]

Thanks, Mike. I guess all the Alky Funny Car racers, and Alcohol Dragster racers (and, Comp cars, too) have MoPar to thank for thir egregious valve spring bills.
Warren had it right... sounds like.

That is the third time someone blamed Mopar for the banning. Link?

 

[Sean D, shondoo]

WJ said he perfected the pneumatic system in 92,Mopar had NHRA outlaw it. The cost would be appox. $2,400.00 and throw 16 seals in it once in a while and there you go. Cost of valve springs is over a $100K a year,go figure.

Okay, David Reher told me not too long ago that they could get 4 - 5 passes out of a set of springs. Let's just call it 4 and say you qualify and win every race in a 24-race season (which is ridiculous, obviously). That would equal 48-sets of springs, and at a clip of 100-grand per year (the quote was actually "over 100,000") that makes the springs over 2-grand per set. I understand there's minimal amounts of testing and dyno pulls, but let's face it; my example was the most extreme there could be.

What am I missing here? Something doesn't add up.

Sean D