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Cheating... and I don't mean on your spouse
- Thread starter barry
- Start date
none
Nitro Member
That motor change thrash Randy was talking about was the wildest one I was ever involved with. We had broken the fitting on top of the pump (we think as we had no data) and just nuked the motor. All we had in the trailer was a cast TFX short block that was totally untested. We had so many people helping us it was insane. Running all over the place trying to borrow stuff to get it back together. Somehow we made it to the lanes but we never got to start it in the pits. We wanted to start it in the staging lanes but they wouldn't let us. Heck we didn't know if it WOULD start. Dragged it out there to race Doug Gordon in the semi's hit the switch and it started ! It actually sounded OK til I looked at the oil pressure gauge and it was sitting on zero. No sadder feeling in the world when I pulled the fuel shutoff and the motor quit...Or so I thought til looked over and Rick Stewert was giving Doug the shut it off sign as they had a leak backing up from the burnout. If I only had seen that before shutting ours off could have staged it and got the win. Things get even weirder when we get back to the pit area and Randy looks in the dry sump tank and its obvious that oil was circulating. We thought about it for a while and Randy checked the oil pressure gauge with an air hose. Blow 125psi in it...Nada,nothing ,zilch. The kaboom in the second round was so big it killed the gauge. We had oil pressure, could have taken the tree in the semi's and gone on to race Dennis Taylor in the final,who went on and took the win in the final unopposed. Oh well wasn't meant to be. DT got his I believe first Wally at his home track so that was way cool and our team had actually been the baddest TAFC on the grounds for the race and Me? I wanted to beat a $50 oil pressure gauge to death with a hammer. Randy wouldn't let me near the hammer drawer though.
stitcherbob
Nitro Member
I would have treated that gauge like I did to my malfunctioning car CD player....set it on fire in my driveway
Randy
Nitro Member
I didn't keep a lot of stuff when I quit, but I did keep that oil pressure gauge (along with the complete fuel system including the injector and flow meter). The old saying was "It's never the gauge." In this case it was. I'll dig it up and post a picture.
Funny part of that whole story that Marc didn't tell. At that race in 2004 Marc ran against Ed Marx in the second round when it blew up. The hood burst panel went about 100' in the air at 1,000' and it still ran a 5.60 coasting. On the big screen from the sand trap video you could see the car was on fire and Marc was in oil. The fire crew pulls out on the track to chase him down and Marc slides right up to the fire truck and they put the hose in the hole in the hood to put it out. When we get down there they are cleaning up the mess and Marc is next to the ambulance coughing and spitting. He looks at me with his smoke stained face pissed because it looks like we're done. I looked at the car and said "Why didn't you hit the fire bottles?" Marc says "We don't have any more bottles for next round, that's why!" Then Big Mike asks Marc "Are you OK?" Marc looks up at Big Mike and says "I'm fine...NOW WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING DOWN HERE??? GET YOUR ASS BACK TO THE TRAILER AND GET THE OTHER ENGINE OUT FROM UNDER THE BENCH AND GET IT READY!" That's when the thrash began. LOL
From DRC:
Car#-Driver(Opp'nt)-RT-----ET---Speed-----Car#-Driver(Opp'nt)-RT----ET---Speed
34 Marc White vs 75 Ed Marx
E2 ****WINNER**** White: 0.086 5.604 225.67 Marx: 0.057 5.807 205.51
Prior rounds:
E1 (B Gallio ) White: 0.094 5.553 256.80 (V Moats ) Marx: 0.062 5.689 251.67
Qualified: #1 White: 5.567 254.71 #8 Marx: 5.701 251.11
White has been causing cell phones and internet chat rooms to buzz after his performance this weekend. White was second off the starting line but he caught Marx really early. The Randy Goodwin prepped car was on another fantastic run until about 1000 feet when there was a loud bang and a flash of fire underneath. The burst panel came out and White skated around in oil getting the car stopped at the other end. Still runs a 5.60 blowing it up!
http://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCStory.asp?ID=13567&Filter=Year2004#indextop
That old cast engine we put in it but never ran that day because of the gauge reading actually made one lap at the end of the year at the 2004 finals in the final qualifying session. It had collapsed pistons, square bores, an old set of rings with about .060 end gaps, an old set of rods, a cracked crank but a good camshaft. Basically the rotating assembly consisted of junk. It was put together as engine #3 just in case we got that deep into our parts inventory. In the last qualifying session we were the second to the last pair to run. Marc stunned me (and Big Mike) when he laid down a 5.59 to move us to number one over the Woz's 5.63. Big Mike and I were speechless on the return road. How does a piece of junk between the frame rails run a 5.59? Next pair Jay bumped us to #2 with a 5.55. But that kinda blew us away because we worked so hard at keeping #1 and #2 engines perfect, and here a pile of scrap parts just laid down a big number, too.
From DRC:
Left Lane: Hannes Wernhart Runs 5.756/241.32, Now #16; Best prior run: 5.743/238.85, Was #16
Right Lane: Marc White Runs 5.595/255.77, Now #1; Best prior run: 5.735/253.52, Was #14
Yesterday White broke an intake retainer and pretty much junked a motor. Today is a new day and in a last ditch effort he takes over the top spot in the field. Wernhart runs wells but remains on the bump.
http://www.dragracecentral.com/DRCStory.asp?ID=88829&Filter=Year2004#indextop
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none
Nitro Member
Marc. Here's the gauge. See how the needle is pointing down? See the stop pin next to the Zero? The needle is on the wrong side of the stop, besides pointing down. Even if it moved it would hit the stop and read zero.
I still hate that gauge. But I'm tellin you that was one of the best weekends I ever had racing. That ole Uyehara car was amazing and it fit like a glove. Always wanted to win at Pomona. Ah well. They knew we were there!
stitcherbob
Nitro Member
M Jones
Nitro Member
If anybody could do it, he could, funny stuff
Randy
Nitro Member
It was a keeper because seeing is believing. I remember you and I yelling back and forth. "Why did you shut it off?" "Why weren't you next to the car to make the call?" Then we just looked at each other and didn't say a word. "Dang. Now DT gets a single in the final and wins the Winternational's." I wish Doug Gordon would post what he was thinking.
Justin@NRE
Nitro Member
Barry, you raise a valid point. But when in history has NHRA had officials with enough time and expertise to even know what they're looking for? NHRA has always relied on racers to tattle on each other and show them what they should be looking for. Remember Rusty Glidden? Prime example and that was over 20 years ago. That's why you've got a list of physical attributes that can be pretty easily verified in the rule book and the "do not" section of the rule book is very vague and open ended.. But where do you draw the line between cheating and creative thinking too? I know a bunch of TA drivers that think using a converter is cheating because the staging and launch process is so much different. Does traction control really offer an unfair advantage? The Outlaw PM's can run everything under the sun that would be considered cheating in TA, and there's still only a few of those guys putting the hurt on the rest of the pack every weekend. What if a racer takes a stock approved head, puts it on a flow bench and finds a valve seat angle configuration that allows more flow vs. the stock configuration? They haven't changed any of the physical properties of the head mentioned in the rule book, but that also gives them something no one else has.
So you not only have racers policing themselves to some extent, but there is also the threat of having that asterisk next to your name and accomplishments in the history books if you manage to make a pretty good career record for yourself. With racers policing themselves so much, how far do you take investigating all claims by other racers? I remember a BAD driver that always hit the chip at the 1-2 shift because his shift light was set too high and he couldn't react as quickly anymore. Somebody accused him of having traction control because of the wet pipes when he'd hit the limiter. Tech inspector comes over, wants to see the graph as it comes straight from the car because someone is accusing them of having traction control because they saw wet pipes. Crew chief says, "I'll save you the trouble. My driver is basically holding his thumb over the shift button and when the engine hits the limiter and he gets thrown into the belts, it shifts." I have heard some pretty outlandish claims over the years from people getting ideas about what someone else is doing, some not even physically possible.
Justin - There was a time when the alcohol class had a sheriff. This southern gentleman not only had the "expertise" - he looked the part. He carried a NHRA rule book in his back pocket like a Colt 45. He only use it to prove to you that you were wrong. I'm not sure what happened to him but I know his name and some prominent players were rumored together during some kind of a "blowergate" a ways back.
There's tons of stories about racers being falsely accused. I've been there myself. I'm kind of sorry I started this. That wasn't what I was asking. I was only putting the question out there, what if? How would anyone know? Maybe it was wrong of me to even think for one moment that someone in racing would be dishonest.
There's tons of stories about racers being falsely accused. I've been there myself. I'm kind of sorry I started this. That wasn't what I was asking. I was only putting the question out there, what if? How would anyone know? Maybe it was wrong of me to even think for one moment that someone in racing would be dishonest.
Randy
Nitro Member
You're right. What was I thinking!
Randy and Marc; how about a tech tip from the old guy, just in case you win the lotto and do it again............you know I love a good mystery, so playing detective on an identical case, I called Autometer tech along with two other mfg.'s, they all said the same thing.
All instruments are designed and calibrated at 1/2 their intended range, so your gauge with shut-off spikes has been overtaxed already! If either of you ever peeked in one of my cars, you would have seen 400 PSI oil pressure gauges and 200 PSI blower boost gauges!
All instruments are designed and calibrated at 1/2 their intended range, so your gauge with shut-off spikes has been overtaxed already! If either of you ever peeked in one of my cars, you would have seen 400 PSI oil pressure gauges and 200 PSI blower boost gauges!
Randy
Nitro Member
Yea, but do your gauges come in a neat box from Summit Racing with fancy contingency decals, and if you win do you get a huge contingency pay check from them?
Randy
Nitro Member
It did win 8 years later. Car was 18 years old in 2012. Old race cars never die...They just get rebodied.
stitcherbob
Nitro Member
Old race drivers never die...They just smell that way.
Justin@NRE
Nitro Member
lol. No, I'd say it's a very fair thought, every racer is always looking for an advantage over the competition, pushing gray areas, and some will just outright cheat to get it. The biggest deterrent will always be getting discovered and having your record smeared. Racers will always be one step ahead of tech and tech can only ever check for what they know to look for. The only time people would notice is if your car does something "funny" that wouldn't otherwise be physically possible. But that's the hard part about policing as well because it is so easy to consider someone cheating if they are running numbers no one else is. But if the crazy fast guys are cheating, they hide it extraordinarily well because they get checked more often than anyone else. I have seen cheating first hand over the years, but it was always on cars that nobody would typically have their eyes on and weren't in any danger of showing any signs of having an unfair advantage with their runs.
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