WOOPS ! There Goes Pontiac !

[Larry]

PONTIAC to be demoted to a nitche unit !
Well at least it didn't disapeer entirely like every one thought.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/20/business/20pontiac.html?em

 

["Dr. Dirt"]

Isn't it time for GM to strike on the UAW? In my lifetime, the UAW has held U.S. Automakers hostage so many times I can't count them, demanding more money, more benefits, less responsibility, softer working conditions, etc, etc, etc, during a time when the automakers couldn't say no due to the demand. Now that the tables are turned, I say it's time to excuse the UAW altogether and offer all line positions at $18 hr. with benefits to start after 6 months of sound performance with profit sharing opportunities that will motivate them to produce.
I would venture to say more than 50% of these current UAW fat cats would gladly take the new positions rather than sit around and pout with no income at all. If they refuse, there are hundreds of thousands of unemployed workers who would love to have such an opportunity so these jobs would fill very quickly.
Anyone who can't see the problem this union has caused the big three is simply blind in my opinion and they have now driven the automakers into uncharted waters given the foreign competition.

I further say, don't give another dollar of bailout money to them until they have completely restructured this failed business model from top to the bottom. Doing so is like giving a drug addict money to survive before entering rehab - it's wasted money.

 

[mick]

Isn't it time for GM to strike on the UAW? In my lifetime, the UAW has held U.S. Automakers hostage so many times I can't count them, demanding more money, more benefits, less responsibility, softer working conditions, etc, etc, etc, during a time when the automakers couldn't say no due to the demand. Now that the tables are turned, I say it's time to excuse the UAW altogether and offer all line positions at $18 hr. with benefits to start after 6 months of sound performance with profit sharing opportunities that will motivate them to produce.
I would venture to say more than 50% of these current UAW fat cats would gladly take the new positions rather than sit around and pout with no income at all. If they refuse, there are hundreds of thousands of unemployed workers who would love to have such an opportunity so these jobs would fill very quickly.
Anyone who can't see the problem this union has caused the big three is simply blind in my opinion and they have now driven the automakers into uncharted waters given the foreign competition.

I further say, don't give another dollar of bailout money to them until they have completely restructured this failed business model from top to the bottom. Doing so is like giving a drug addict money to survive before entering rehab - it's wasted money.

bobby, i don't think there's anything you said that i don't agree with.
i see it the same way, the auto industry is not dead, it just doesn't center
around detroit anymore.
just as you suggested; 'hundreds of thousands of unemployed workers who
would love to have such an opportunity so these jobs would fill very quickly'
hey, wouldn't that be a REAL stimulus to our economy!

 

[Butch]

Bobby & Mike I agree, Coming from the shadows of the Motorcity where I grew up. I had many friends that had family working for the big three. I herd lots of stories about the Union BS. Last I knew at the Lordstown plant a broom pusher got $24. an hour.
On another note why does GM have a line of GMC & Chevy Trucks? Whats wrong with dropping one of them. I just don't see a need for the two.

 

[BaldyLochs]

Hopefully this means that someday my 40th Anniversary GTP will be worth a ton of money. I wonder what the chances are that we'll see a 50th Anniversary Grand Prix?

 

[mick]

.....On another note why does GM have a line of GMC & Chevy Trucks? Whats wrong with dropping one of them. I just don't see a need for the two.

many years i heard something that i doubt has any truth, but always thought
it sounded good.............trucks rolling off assembly line that need spacers
to properly align fenders/body panels were given chevy emblems, while trucks
that had a perfect body fit with no need for spacers were given gmc emblems;
hence way more chevs

 

[Nitrohaulic]

Has driving industries into the ground/overseas stopped the unions, so far? Why would the automakers be any different? They will serve themselves until a business is no more, making the business out to be evil the whole time.

John Force talked about this very thing a few years ago. That he had a good truck driving job and the union ran it out of business.

I hauled a load of freight out of a Cleveland plant a few weeks ago. The "freight" was their machinery going to a southern plant that bought it. One of 3,000 pieces to go. 400 union employees losing their jobs, median age of 55. There's just a few left there working to ship out all their stuff. Basically being paid to finish digging their own graves.

I'll fault the unions as quickly as anyone else but, at the same time, these people have a problem! What happens to your insurance rates if you hire people in the 50s? Nobody's going to hire these people in an already bad economy.

Of course, I have to stop BEFORE going to economics/tax policy because, that's considered to be political discussion in the lounge! Seems to me it should only be political if I associate a political "party" to my reasoning. Just nuts and bolts money.

 

[clwill]

The thing that baffles me is keeping Buick alive. The only people who buy/drive Buicks are 65+. Their customer base is dying.

GM of old was:

Chevy: America’s brand, the car you wanted when you were starting out. And pickups (why they stole this market from GMC, I don’t get). Oh, and the Vette.
Pontiac: Performance, the “hot” chevy, with the Firebird and the GTO and so on. Why the Vette wasn’t a Pontiac, I’ll never understand.
Buick: Business man’s car. Entry-level luxury. The car you aspired to after you out-earned the payment on the Chevy. Only reason they’ve sold anything outside of the 65+ crowd was Tiger Woods, and that deal’s done.
Cadillac: The ultimate in aspiration. This is where you wanted to be.
GMC: Used to be called GM Truck/Bus. Somehow got to be the “Buick” of trucks (same thing as a Chevy, but more insulation and a couple more gizmos).
Saturn: A “whole new car company”, that ended up just being the same cars as Chevy and Pontiac with different skins
Hummer: The military vehicle company that they never should’ve bought.

Problem is way too much overlap. Even recently, the GMC Acadia, which was a whole newly designed car just 2-3 years ago (and is a great car), has a Chevy, Buick, Saturn, Cadillac (and I think Pontiac) twin. How stupid.

And you have dealers with all kinds of weird combos, some solo (only Chevy or only Caddy), some Buick/Pontiac/GMC, some Chevy/Pontiac, some Chevy/Cadillac, even Cadillac/Hummer, etc., etc. Again, how confusing can you make it for your customers?

And there are 3x too many dealers. There’s one in every piss-ant little town, and 25 GM dealers within an hour of me. But there are only 5 Toyota dealers. Again, GM is really stupid.

I think the best GM could be is:

Chevy: entry to mid-line cars, and the Vette. Cede trucks and SUVs to GMC. Their unique lines are at the bottom. Work hard on the Volt, and other gas-sippers and such. Go back to “America’s Car”.

GMC: All trucks and SUVs, from the workhorse to almost the top-of-the-line SUV. Maybe carry a hybrid or two in here, but nothing much.

Cadillac: mid-line to top-of-the line cars and SUVs. At the mid-line they are pimped up Chevy twins, including a pimped up Volt. At the top they are unique, just like Chevy is at the bottom. And they should have a few SUV’s that are twins to the GMC but pimped up. Just like the pimped up Vette twin they have today (name??), that still makes some sense.

Dealers could be any combination of the three because they’d all make sense. And just summarily cut off the bottom 10% of the dealers each year for the next 10 years. Tell them, “you can sell any of our brands you want, we no longer give a rip about non-competes within X miles. It’s just a rugby scrum, make it work. But fall in the bottom 10% nationwide, and you’re gone.” Just “Buh-bye, you lose”.

This company could be lean, mean, and could kick butt.

But then, nobody asked me

 

[BaldyLochs]

I also understand there was quite an internal debate that went on for a while regarding if wether or not they would put out the new Cadillac CTS-V or build a whole new version of the Buick GSX/GNX/GN series to compete with the Mustangs & Challengers. Now that I've seen the CTS-V and got to ride in one, and even though that car is downright awesome....In light of this thread title, I would have much rather seen them do another limited production Buick Super Car.

 

[afx421]

in my opinion pontiac died when the last super duty trans am rolled off the line in 74.( sorry johnny caran i know you loved your late 70s t/a) oh well, only problem is , in a few years all that will be running in pro stock is cobalts and stratuses or whatever new body mopar runs. im curiuos to see what it does to prices for the older stuff. my 66 GTO convertable isnt worth 2 cents since i pro streeted it anyway

 

[Larry]

As detestable as some Union practices are and the added cost to every vehicle produced those are the tip of the iceberg !
In just the last three years and it's expanding at an alarming rate GM borrowed [ KEYWORD BORROWED ] 117 Billion Dollars they did not have to pay for retiree health care and funding employee retraining !

They can cut costs and current employees all they want but in the end those deals cut to keep the Unions working back in the good days when market share was wayyy higher than the 23 percent and falling US automakers are facing now.
And this is before the Chinese horde of cheap Japanese knockoffs arrive to put a stake in them.

It's terrible because people depended on having those Bennie's but if the body dies they won't have them anyway.

Like 32 car fields Pontiac may be a fond memory.
I loved my 65 GTO and next to my Vettes it had the best power and handling of any of the muscle cars I ever owned.

 

[merc49]

In the Mater lounge someone started a thread about the demise of the Pontiac. Seems the well informed Mater bretheren forgot a few of the things the UAW is responsible for. ie;

Global Warming and the thaw of the ice cap. This is clearly the UAW's fault. Back in the 60's the UAW went on strike against Mother Nature, and won. The UAW was awarded all the fresh water in the world. Of course, that's why bottled water became so popular, and so expensive.

The fall of the Catholic Church. Yes, the UAW, in negotiations with the Pope in Rome, agreed to a deal to gradually close all Catholic Churches and turn the property over to all the poor Romans.

The NHRA Nitro Ban of the early 1960s. Seeing that famed drag racer Don (Big Daddy) (aka The Swamp Rat, Large Father, and sometimes ''that sneaky @#$%&@$'') was becoming unbeatable the NHRA, on bended knee, begged the UAW membership to boycott all nitro drag racing events. This led to the ban of Nitro, except at so-called "outlaw" aka AHRA races. The NHRA finally begged the UAW on bended knee to lift the nitro ban. The UAW gave in (as usual)!

The Extermination of the Passenger Pigeon.
"Martha", thought to be the world's last passenger pigeon, died on Sept 1, 1914 in Cinncinnati, OH, Headquarters of the UAW.

The demise of 32 car Top Fuel Eliminator fields. I just know that damned ol UAW was at the bottom of this.

So there you have it. I hope all you UAW brothers and sisters are duly ashamed of yourselves. You now have all of the best health care, all the best wages, and all of the political clout that you have been criticized for since the sit-down strikes of 1936 and 37.

In solidarity,

Bob

 

[Nitrohaulic]

They may be responsible for all that but, as long as you voted the way they told you to, you have a clear conscience.

Right?

 

["Dr. Dirt"]

The only thing the UAW is responsible for, is taking a perfectly good labor force and turning them into a strike force capable of dragging the world's three largest auto makers into the red so far they may never recover. I sincerely doubt the workers individually would have ever asked wages, benefits, sick days, holidays, health care, death benefits, retirement packages, etc, etc, etc, etc, on their own, in a sit down with their managers. No, the organization told them what to strike for at a time the auto makers were bursting at the seams with orders and could hardly let a single person go without interruption on the line. Surviving such demands is nearly impossible in today's economic climate. Ask AMC! They couldn't survive these demands in a good market.

 

[mw6789]

many years i heard something that i doubt has any truth, but always thought
it sounded good.............trucks rolling off assembly line that need spacers
to properly align fenders/body panels were given chevy emblems, while trucks
that had a perfect body fit with no need for spacers were given gmc emblems;
hence way more chevs

Used to be a Chevy dealership service manager in the late 70's and early 80's and once a year we traded the Sierra Classics emblems mistakenly put on the Silverados with the GMC dealer for the Silverado emblems mistakenly put on the Sierra Classics. Same truck--different emblems and some trim. When we owned our Chevy store in the 90's, my partners owned a couple of GMC stores and at the time a GMC truck was something like $89 higher than a comparable equipped Chevy. Hate to see Pontiac fade away--I sure love my 30th anniversary Firebird and my WS6 convertible. Oh well, unfortunately, time marches on.

 

[mw6789]

In the Mater lounge someone started a thread about the demise of the Pontiac. Seems the well informed Mater bretheren forgot a few of the things the UAW is responsible for. ie;

Global Warming and the thaw of the ice cap. This is clearly the UAW's fault. Back in the 60's the UAW went on strike against Mother Nature, and won. The UAW was awarded all the fresh water in the world. Of course, that's why bottled water became so popular, and so expensive.

The fall of the Catholic Church. Yes, the UAW, in negotiations with the Pope in Rome, agreed to a deal to gradually close all Catholic Churches and turn the property over to all the poor Romans.

The NHRA Nitro Ban of the early 1960s. Seeing that famed drag racer Don (Big Daddy) (aka The Swamp Rat, Large Father, and sometimes ''that sneaky @#$%&@$'') was becoming unbeatable the NHRA, on bended knee, begged the UAW membership to boycott all nitro drag racing events. This led to the ban of Nitro, except at so-called "outlaw" aka AHRA races. The NHRA finally begged the UAW on bended knee to lift the nitro ban. The UAW gave in (as usual)!

The Extermination of the Passenger Pigeon.
"Martha", thought to be the world's last passenger pigeon, died on Sept 1, 1914 in Cinncinnati, OH, Headquarters of the UAW.

The demise of 32 car Top Fuel Eliminator fields. I just know that damned ol UAW was at the bottom of this.

So there you have it. I hope all you UAW brothers and sisters are duly ashamed of yourselves. You now have all of the best health care, all the best wages, and all of the political clout that you have been criticized for since the sit-down strikes of 1936 and 37.

In solidarity,

Bob

Hey Bob--dont forget that Kennedy conspiracy thing. They probably were involved in that too