Toliver's runaway tire.

[Nitrohaulic]

Sam, That runaway tire video is funny!

How about a tire that comes off and goes back on?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_9ycZq6iJ4

 

[Porkchop]

Joe Hartly had the same thing happen a couple years ago at......Houston???

Smoked the tires, sheared the studs, and sent the car over on it's side. Happened to Kenny about 10 years ago also.

Dont forget about Cory Mac at Pomona during the Bud Shootout

 

[Paul]

.
There has only been a handful of incident's like this of this kind with the exception of ...

That is all I'm going to say about this subject. Have a great time speculating.

Nancy, for me a handful of dangerous incidents that are possibly avoidable is too many.

Safety of racing vehicles as an area that requires continual study and improvement. A major driver of this need is the fact that even with rule restrictions, crew chiefs and tuners do an amazing job of finding ways to make cars leave harder, run quicker, etc. and this means the stress on critical components, like wheel studs, is always increasing.

Its good to hear that this was looked at pretty closely in the past. But as I mentioned, you can't freeze your outlook in regards to making race cars as safe as possible, a racing organization needs to be continually working to improve the safety of the cars just to stay even with the increased performance level of the cars.

The fact that a failure has happened again on a pretty simple component sounds to me like its time for another look at this issue. This isn't pointing any fingers or trying to lay blame on anybody, I just don't want to see anyone get hurt over something that can be fixed.

Fastener technology and analysis and is really specialized, and as smart as today's crew chiefs are, its still expecting too much for them to be experts in this pretty specialized area. Some one who is a fastener and metallurgy expert very likely could make some recommendations that would eliminate these failures from ever happening again.

Do I go overboard on safety issues? I don't know, maybe, maybe not, as an engineer I sometimes get accused of over analysing situations. I was also involved both as a safety director and safety advisor in a form of youth motorsports called quartermidgets (basically kid sized sprint cars, very competitive racing) for seven years and I learned alot in the process and also think I made some good progress in making the sport safer for the young drivers, which at the time included my 2 sons.

One of the things I learned no matter how safe you think you have made the cars, someone else with some complementary experiences can often find ways to make them even safer, so its really important to always be open for outside opinions.

No axe to grind here and no hard feelings for any counter opinions, I just like this sport a lot and would like to see the drivers be as safe as possible, too many tears for me over the last couple of years over some of the great young drivers we've lost. I guess being a father made having to watch the drivers fathers deal with these losses even harder, I can't imagine having to go through that.

Paul T.

 

[Nick Name]

maybe they should shorten the race track to 660' to avoid mishaps like this in the future.

I second that. We have to be prepared for everything.

 

[Nitrohaulic]

Didn't Bernstein's failure result in the banning of titanium wheel studs?

 

[FC Girl]

Nancy, for me a handful of dangerous incidents that are possibly avoidable is too many.

Safety of racing vehicles as an area that requires continual study and improvement. A major driver of this need is the fact that even with rule restrictions, crew chiefs and tuners do an amazing job of finding ways to make cars leave harder, run quicker, etc. and this means the stress on critical components, like wheel studs, is always increasing.

Its good to hear that this was looked at pretty closely in the past. But as I mentioned, you can't freeze your outlook in regards to making race cars as safe as possible, a racing organization needs to be continually working to improve the safety of the cars just to stay even with the increased performance level of the cars.

The fact that a failure has happened again on a pretty simple component sounds to me like its time for another look at this issue. This isn't pointing any fingers or trying to lay blame on anybody, I just don't want to see anyone get hurt over something that can be fixed.

Fastener technology and analysis and is really specialized, and as smart as today's crew chiefs are, its still expecting too much for them to be experts in this pretty specialized area. Some one who is a fastener and metallurgy expert very likely could make some recommendations that would eliminate these failures from ever happening again.

Do I go overboard on safety issues? I don't know, maybe, maybe not, as an engineer I sometimes get accused of over analysing situations. I was also involved both as a safety director and safety advisor in a form of youth motorsports called quartermidgets (basically kid sized sprint cars, very competitive racing) for seven years and I learned alot in the process and also think I made some good progress in making the sport safer for the young drivers, which at the time included my 2 sons.

One of the things I learned no matter how safe you think you have made the cars, someone else with some complementary experiences can often find ways to make them even safer, so its really important to always be open for outside opinions.

No axe to grind here and no hard feelings for any counter opinions, I just like this sport a lot and would like to see the drivers be as safe as possible, too many tears for me over the last couple of years over some of the great young drivers we've lost. I guess being a father made having to watch the drivers fathers deal with these losses even harder, I can't imagine having to go through that.

Paul T.

They have all the data and I'm sure they would love to hear all of your hypothesis as it clearly shows that maybe you know something they don't. If you can build a better mousetrap, I'm sure they would be all ears when your theory is proven.

Quarter midgets--8000 hp Nitro Dragsters/Funny Cars

Hmmm, Makes sense to me.

No disrespect to the Midgets as I love all racing especially Alcohol Sprints and Modifieds, but the comparison isn't quite the same.

Now how about those cowboys?

 

[Too many to list here]

"as an engineer I sometimes get accused of over analysing situations"
No sh!t?

 

[Jenn]

The fact that a failure has happened again on a pretty simple component sounds to me like its time for another look at this issue.

Paul, a rule of thumb is the more complicated you make the product, the more likely it is to fail. I don't have an engineering degree, just 4 race cars, so I'm just sayin'

No axe to grind here and no hard feelings for any counter opinions, I just like this sport a lot and would like to see the drivers be as safe as possible, too many tears for me over the last couple of years over some of the great young drivers we've lost. I guess being a father made having to watch the drivers fathers deal with these losses even harder, I can't imagine having to go through that.

Paul T.

Nancy is a driver, I think she's probably just as concerned if not more so about the safety in her car and her competitors car. She's a mom too, so my guess is, that she puts her kids in her thoughts when it comes to safety.

 

[Z28LT1]

Here is my grandstand video
YouTube - Jerry Toliver's runaway tire NHRA AAA Finals Pomona, Ca
I just uploaded it, so it might take a min or two before it's ready.
Enjoy!

 

[Paul]

No disrespect to the Midgets as I love all racing especially Alcohol Sprints and Modifieds, but the comparison isn't quite the same.

I guess you're right, the safety issues in midget racing are more challenging because there are a lot more car to car contacts, wall hits and rollovers to deal with.

Sorry Nancy, I couldn't resist that one.

Seriously though, and with all due respect, the basic principles of a strong safety program are pretty much the same in all forms of motorsports. Candidly, the NHRA, who have the fastest race cars on the planet, is behind other racing organizations in doing the best they can to insure the safety of their drivers. Is this really a secret to anyone? Just to hammer home the point, Monster trucks had safety kill switches years before the NHRA was even looking into implementing the recent blower panel based system.

The first thing you need to do is go after the "low hanging fruit" and wheels falling off the cars because of wheel stud failure is definetly on the basic level.

Its not unproven rocket science or speculation to state that the "sometimes parts just break" approach has to be retired, as it already has been in most other serious forms of motorsports. When its possible, you have to identify and understand the reason a critical part is failing, and then if its practical, take the steps needed to insure it can't happen again. Fortunately wheel stud failure is one of the cases where its both possible and practical to insure it can't keep happening.

For example, Nascar not only has retired the problem of wheels falling off the cars, they've also insured they can't fly into the stands. There's no reason NHRA can't at least get the first part of this in place.

Hopefully the NHRA is already taking steps to do this driven by this recent failure, and if anybody is aware that this is going on please elucidate us and I'll STFU, but it would be irresponsible if the NHRA is not looking into this,and correct me if I'm wrong, but they've been pretty quiet on this issue.

Looks like I'm making as many points with Nancy as I probably would with Pam. Oh well, back to the calculator.

Paul T.

 

[Nitrohaulic]

I have to agree with Paul. If any of the wheels/tires that have come off due to sheared studs "HAD HAPPENED" to kill anyone, something would have been done about it already. The only difference between life and death on that one is dumb luck and it's gotta run out someday.

Anyone who would talk against doing something about it now, I'd want to hear say the same things after someone gets killed. Something else in that driveline should be the next weak link, IMO.

When I slide trailer tandems, I do it with the truck rolling a little and the clutch in, letting the weight do the work, because I know that twisting a driveshaft in two is the weak link that newbies sometimes learn in trucking. It ain't gonna be ten lug nuts shearing off. No way, no how.

Titanium wheel studs were banned after they sheared. How come nothing's been done about steel studs that shear? Because nobody's been killed yet?

 

[None]

At least emergency road service from AAA was not too far away.

 

[You!]

This whole topic is a like a safety Nazi's wet dream! All this discussion with absolutely no facts as to what the actual failure was.

I'm more curious as to why they can't seem to keep the Dzus buttons on the right side of JR's car. Peeled the tin back at Vegas and Pomona. And did those buttons get picked up off the track before the next pair?

 

[Paul]

All this discussion with absolutely no facts as to what the actual failure was.

Bill, its been reported in several post race reports by reputable sources that the wheel studs failed, here's one example from the NHRA website.

The DRAGSTER Insider

Scroll down to "Loose Wheel".

I guess I am a "safety Nazi", but I'm not really ashamed of that kind of reference. I"m an engineer with a deep and developed interest both in what makes things work better (and go faster) and also what makes them stop working.

When I see something with a fundamental (and preventable) flaw like a fastener failure causing the wheel to come off a race car, I feel it would be irresponsible of me not to try to use the best technical arguments I can muster up to try to convince the powers that be that this problem can be fixed with a solution that would not be an unacceptable burden to the competitors.

I feel the best possible avenue to push for changes like this is this kind of forum, its read by a good mix of competitors and others with serious connections to the sport, and it actually has a much better chance of building support for a different approach than an attempt to directly contact the NHRA.

I know from experience most competitors don't want to hear about rule change proposals in the safety area that will cause them more hassle. But its like making a kid eat his vegetables, somebody's got to do that so the kid will grow up as strong as Popeye (er and Olive Oil for you female racers).

Paul T.

 

[Pat]

You know, I've been following this thread, and thought about giving my opinion concerning the desire to over analyze and over engineering wheel studs, but, then I got to thinking about an old adage about engineers......."Arguing with an engineer is a lot like wrestling in the mud with a pig: After a few hours, you realize the pig likes it." So, I'm just going to keep my thoughts to myself.

Pat

 

[clwill]

"Arguing with an engineer is a lot like wrestling in the mud with a pig: After a few hours, you realize the pig likes it."

Sounds like the politics room here on the mater

 

[Paul]

a lot like wrestling in the mud with a pig

Geez fellas, you'd think I'm recommending that we all have to get hysterectomies or something.

All I'm saying is lets make sure that somebody is taking a close look at this situation to see if there is a reasonable way to improve it.

The solution could be as simple as you have to replace or at least magnaflux your wheel studs every X races.

Wouldn't that be worth it to potentially avoid some pretty dangerous and costly accidents? Some pretty expensive parts probably got ground down on that Toliver car.

Paul T.

 

[Pat]

Paul,

I like your flair for hyperbole, but I don't use the term nazi in reference to anyone or anything. As far as your supposed shocked reaction, as an engineer, I'm sure you have heard that saying on more than one occasion. I heard it used in almost every product meeting I attended.

And no, wheel studs are not worth an argument or discussion. Just like the flying head stud issue of a few years ago was resolved without a massive over engineering frontal assault, so too, will the wheel stud issue, if it is deemed to be a repeatable problem.

Pat

 

[Jenn]

Geez fellas, you'd think I'm recommending that we all have to get hysterectomies or something.

That recommendation would only work for those who have uteruses

 

[ProNitro Pete]

How about a tire that comes off and goes back on?

YouTube - Dirt track car looses tire (RealTV clip)

Ron, that was Funny..... but catch the commentator......WHATS THAT.....Paul Page in Round Track Stock Car.

Did you guys catch that,... "you wont believe it, tha 'casing' came of the Rim of the the # 5 car, he rode the car upto, and picked up the 'casing' back on the rim, cause no air in it"

UNBELIEVABLE!

Last time i heard, they are called TIRES.