Doug in the woods
Nitro Member
judging from the amount of cars impacting the guardrails in Gainsville (the most I ever recall) seems like the track may be part of the equation as to cause of tragdy?
just my 2 cents.
just my 2 cents.
Nitromater
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Racers pushing for safer barriers...
- Thread starter Toejam
- Start date
Coop
Nitro Member
I just want to clarify my stance on slowing down the cars...
I agree that there is NO DIFFERENCE between a 300mph and a 330mph impact. Hell, there's no difference between a 250mph impact. We all agree about that...
What I am saying is that slowing down the cars would (in theory) reduce the opportunity for parts failure (tires) with a catastrophic result.
It will eventually - if not already - become an issue of economics for Goodyear.
What is the breaking point where it no longer makes business sense for them to invest the money to research and develop a tire that can withstand 330+ stresses? What is the "payback" in that investment from a business standpoint?
I am by no means questioning Goodyear and their capabilities. I am just throwing out what does go on in a corporate culture...you need to be able to look at all the contributing factors in any proposal.
People on the board here have already been throwing out the whole softwall discussing and theorizing who would and wouldn't pay for it.
And just my $0.20 on something else being floated around here to discuss - I'd MUCH rather see a 290mph 1/4 mile race than a 240mph 1/8 mile race.
I agree that there is NO DIFFERENCE between a 300mph and a 330mph impact. Hell, there's no difference between a 250mph impact. We all agree about that...
What I am saying is that slowing down the cars would (in theory) reduce the opportunity for parts failure (tires) with a catastrophic result.
It will eventually - if not already - become an issue of economics for Goodyear.
What is the breaking point where it no longer makes business sense for them to invest the money to research and develop a tire that can withstand 330+ stresses? What is the "payback" in that investment from a business standpoint?
I am by no means questioning Goodyear and their capabilities. I am just throwing out what does go on in a corporate culture...you need to be able to look at all the contributing factors in any proposal.
People on the board here have already been throwing out the whole softwall discussing and theorizing who would and wouldn't pay for it.
And just my $0.20 on something else being floated around here to discuss - I'd MUCH rather see a 290mph 1/4 mile race than a 240mph 1/8 mile race.
none
Nitro Member
Bingo!
Post of the year...
We're all hurtin' right now, and it is only human nature during these times to want "do something, do ANYTHING..." to prevent stuff like this from ever happening again.
Incremental, well thought out changes, in the name of safety are a good thing.
Knee jerk, wholesale changes strictly for the sake of "doing something" are not.
This is a very dangerous sport, and we should never forget that.
Eric was not a victim of anything or anyone and there are no bad guys here, regardless of the human propensity to pin blame on something, or someone.
Sad as it is, it was an accident.
RIP, Eric, and prayers to the family...
rocketman
Nitro Member
Actually maybe the best thing would be to avoid a knee-jerk reaction which is tempting to do right now. But if the insurance providers start breathing down the back of NHRA, then maybe the best solution is to shorten the track distance to 1200 feet. I think an eighth-mile is to short but I could live with 1200 feet. The fuel teams will save more money too.
I know this was looked at a few years ago and might be a better solution then slowing them down. Just a thought.
yoda
Nitro Member
I really am glad that the mods haven't merged the two Soft wall threads- their is a defined difference between them. This one is less about the technical side of the subject, and this one seems to be more about the overall impact any change would have on the sport..
That's why I like posting here- the brain cell activity is better than any gym membership..
That's why I like posting here- the brain cell activity is better than any gym membership..
Joker741
Nitro Member
If you shorten the track to 1200 feet the fuel cars will blow up at 1100 feet. Leave it alone, don't slow the cars down, forget the walls, they won't work. The developers stated that over 156 mph the car is destroyed anyhow. Eric was involved in an accident. No one meant for it to happen and until you know why it happened, remember Eric and let the sport continue.
R.I.P. Eric, you will be missed.
Jenn
Nitro Member
Pushing for safer barriers seems like a fairly reasonable request. If you consider Eric's crash or not. I'm not all that familiar with the other sports barriers so I'm not going to argue the physics portion of it. Taking precautions is not going to push the sport out of existence. Otherwise, it'd have been the end of NHRA when they came out with the RED.
I do know that there are safety improvements that were suggested and planned before the incident and now that people are contemplating them, they are just picked up on more by the media because of the tragedy that happened. I wouldn't jump on either Cory or J.R. Todd for bringing their ideas to the forefront, it's an idea, prevention should be fully investigated once all the facts are out.
I have no doubt that Eric had the best equiptment money could buy and I don't doubt anybody's commitment to safety on that team. I also don't doubt that any issue they pinpoint will be brought to the other teams attention so that the class can find a suitable solution. Improvements in safety aren't something that's top secret for that team, especially now.
I do know that there are safety improvements that were suggested and planned before the incident and now that people are contemplating them, they are just picked up on more by the media because of the tragedy that happened. I wouldn't jump on either Cory or J.R. Todd for bringing their ideas to the forefront, it's an idea, prevention should be fully investigated once all the facts are out.
I have no doubt that Eric had the best equiptment money could buy and I don't doubt anybody's commitment to safety on that team. I also don't doubt that any issue they pinpoint will be brought to the other teams attention so that the class can find a suitable solution. Improvements in safety aren't something that's top secret for that team, especially now.
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90-percent
Nitro Member
My suggestion is to have two lane referees with radio control of the cars parachutes. Most incidents would be less calamitous if the chute comes out as early as possible. Most drivers are a little preoccupied to even think about the chutes.
Just a suggestion.
The highest mortailty rate in drag racing was nitro dragsters in the mid 60's. There was a few years where about 5 to 10 lives were lost per year! See Dr. Posts book High Performance for more on that.
-85% jimmy
Just a suggestion.
The highest mortailty rate in drag racing was nitro dragsters in the mid 60's. There was a few years where about 5 to 10 lives were lost per year! See Dr. Posts book High Performance for more on that.
-85% jimmy
Joker741
Nitro Member
Eric had the chutes out before he crashed is what I read somewhere. Alan Reinhart would be the one to ask about that though.
Randy
Nitro Member
Once again Alan jumps in and makes the necessary much needed comments.
Just a question about "soft walls". 99% of the hits are glances where the cars are sent on down the track without further incident like Ashley's deal Sunday. Heck, I bounced off the wall at Sears Point about 10 years ago going 200 miles per hour. It rolled the header up and scratched up the paint and that was it. Wouldn't a soft wall grab (suck) a funny car in and eat it up before spitting it out? I think those things are made for tight corners where cars don't make the turn and hit the wall nearly head-on, not straightaways where the momentum is nearly parallel with the wall.
The old Armco guardrails used to suck cars up. We don't need that again. Talk about people getting hurt.
RG
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David Hoddle
Nitro Member
No Randy, it would either propel you into the other wall, or the other car!
The old Armco guardrails used to suck cars up. We don't need that again. Talk about people getting hurt.
RG
Man, I can remember when Anita hit the armco at SantaPod and broke her leg - (they have walls now).
How many of us are old enough to remember the big debate about walls when Blaine died, this is not formula1 or nascar. Soft walls are safer if you hit them head-on, Monocoque construction is safer if you collide or hit a wall sideways.
The thread was about walls, so here's my two-pennorth.
Hard concrete walls that you can slide along without slowing down are one of the biggest life savers for drag racers in the last ten years.
OK, that's just my humble opinion.
oops, that was fifty pence worth
Randy
Nitro Member
I just read the other thread about all this.
Automatic chute releases or some guy with a monster truck box kill switch making decisions that the driver should make (like when or when NOT to hit the chutes). I think about the time Hilary passed her opponent on the wrong side, counted to three...then hit the chutes (deliberate, I think). What would have happened if the person with their finger on the button 1,356 feet behind her decided she needed chutes just as she passed and got in front of Bob. Woulda been ugly.
Lotsa knee jerk going on. And I don't say that to minimize what just happened. But a tragedy like this usually requires a series of unbelievable coincidences that just happen. It's terrible, terrible, terrible. But how many horrible crashes have we seen guys like John himself walk away from. Tony Schumacher and Gary Scelzi have given their guardian angels heart attacks, too.
There are certain things in life that are high risk. I watched Max-X last night. At a rodeo here's some 20 something year old petite beautiful female model riding a bull that probably weighes more than her BMW. She gives it a kick, falls off and her hand gets stuck in the ropes. The bull spins her around and nails her in the face with it's right horn and nearly takes her jaw off. Do we cut the bulls head off and insert the head of a sheep, or a rabbit, or a teddy bear on it? No. The thrill is in the risks we take. Some people are wired to take the risks. Aside from the money it takes to do it, there aren't a whole lot of people around with the guts to drive an 8,000 hp TF or FC.
So, taking all the advice here to it's fullest, heres the solution: Have two chairs in the tower about 10 feet back of a Port-a-Tree. In each chair, seat the appropriate driver. In each driver's lap, have a box which is actually the remote control unit for each race car. The crew (as seen through the tower window) tows the race car to the starting line and then they back off. The starter (also in the tower) gives the signal for each driver to hit the green "start" button on the box in their lap. Working a joy stick and foot switch the driver within the safety of the air conditioned tower pulls his or her car forward, does the burnout, and backs up to race.
Sounds idiotic, but that's almost what I seem to be hearing from some of the "safety experts" who know nothing about how to run or drive one of these cars.
Flame away.
RG
Automatic chute releases or some guy with a monster truck box kill switch making decisions that the driver should make (like when or when NOT to hit the chutes). I think about the time Hilary passed her opponent on the wrong side, counted to three...then hit the chutes (deliberate, I think). What would have happened if the person with their finger on the button 1,356 feet behind her decided she needed chutes just as she passed and got in front of Bob. Woulda been ugly.
Lotsa knee jerk going on. And I don't say that to minimize what just happened. But a tragedy like this usually requires a series of unbelievable coincidences that just happen. It's terrible, terrible, terrible. But how many horrible crashes have we seen guys like John himself walk away from. Tony Schumacher and Gary Scelzi have given their guardian angels heart attacks, too.
There are certain things in life that are high risk. I watched Max-X last night. At a rodeo here's some 20 something year old petite beautiful female model riding a bull that probably weighes more than her BMW. She gives it a kick, falls off and her hand gets stuck in the ropes. The bull spins her around and nails her in the face with it's right horn and nearly takes her jaw off. Do we cut the bulls head off and insert the head of a sheep, or a rabbit, or a teddy bear on it? No. The thrill is in the risks we take. Some people are wired to take the risks. Aside from the money it takes to do it, there aren't a whole lot of people around with the guts to drive an 8,000 hp TF or FC.
So, taking all the advice here to it's fullest, heres the solution: Have two chairs in the tower about 10 feet back of a Port-a-Tree. In each chair, seat the appropriate driver. In each driver's lap, have a box which is actually the remote control unit for each race car. The crew (as seen through the tower window) tows the race car to the starting line and then they back off. The starter (also in the tower) gives the signal for each driver to hit the green "start" button on the box in their lap. Working a joy stick and foot switch the driver within the safety of the air conditioned tower pulls his or her car forward, does the burnout, and backs up to race.
Sounds idiotic, but that's almost what I seem to be hearing from some of the "safety experts" who know nothing about how to run or drive one of these cars.
Flame away.
RG
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David Hoddle
Nitro Member
Randy,
Good to read your post, that's a lot of good sense.
Between you and Reinhart who both know how it is, I have heard so much that is right from you both, we should all learn to just stop speculating and wait..... and pray......
Thank you both.
I am still praying for John Medlen, All of the good guys at JFR that they may find peace and some way to carry on at Houston after Wednesday's services.
Eric and John Medlen have both been really good to me, I considered Eric a friend, along with others at JFR.
I want to know more, but then again, I don't need to know any more.
All I really want is to try to help the team and the families to get through this.they deserve a lot more than we are giving them.
NHRA will act to make any changes they need to, so will JFR.
David
Bob
Nitro Member
I had always thought shortening the distance raced would make the racing boring. After watching the racing in San Antonio this past weekend, I don't think so anymore. It wasn't boring at all.
A shorter distance would eliminate the tire problems overnight. There would be fewer engine explosions. The costs related to racing in the nitro classes would drop immediately.
I think it is worthy of consideration.
A shorter distance would eliminate the tire problems overnight. There would be fewer engine explosions. The costs related to racing in the nitro classes would drop immediately.
I think it is worthy of consideration.
Randy
Nitro Member
2 years ago my sisters 17 year old son "Andy" was killed during a hike in the hills behind their home in Murrietta, California. The hills are spotted with Chevy Suburban and Ford Expedition size rocks and boulders.
Long story short, the day before the hike it rained very hard. The boys took a trail they've taken for years. They climbed over the face of one of these boulders they've climbed over a hundred times, but this time it followed him down the hill. The rain the day before undermined it according to the authorities. His older brother, who was just behind him at the time, said Andy turned around just in time to see it run over the top of him. It crushed him beyond recognition. This particular boulder was the size of a catering truck.
While we still feel the pain of it, my sister never cried fowl and asked that the hills be chained up and off limits to future hikers in any of the interviews she did for the local media. Andy wasn't the first fatality there, either. The boys knew the risks and did everything they knew to be safe. Sometimes it just happens. It hurts real bad when it does, but that doesn't mean we should make knee jerk decisions, either.
Eric is in the Lords hands now, as is my nephew. While we grieve their loss, they await our arrival.
RG
Long story short, the day before the hike it rained very hard. The boys took a trail they've taken for years. They climbed over the face of one of these boulders they've climbed over a hundred times, but this time it followed him down the hill. The rain the day before undermined it according to the authorities. His older brother, who was just behind him at the time, said Andy turned around just in time to see it run over the top of him. It crushed him beyond recognition. This particular boulder was the size of a catering truck.
While we still feel the pain of it, my sister never cried fowl and asked that the hills be chained up and off limits to future hikers in any of the interviews she did for the local media. Andy wasn't the first fatality there, either. The boys knew the risks and did everything they knew to be safe. Sometimes it just happens. It hurts real bad when it does, but that doesn't mean we should make knee jerk decisions, either.
Eric is in the Lords hands now, as is my nephew. While we grieve their loss, they await our arrival.
RG
Joker741
Nitro Member
People who want to shorten the race track and think it will stop parts breakage don't seem to understand that these teams are extremely competitive and will set the cars on kill weather it is for 1320 feet or 660 feet. It will not stop engines from going boom.
rocketman
Nitro Member
This is all a reaction to a terrible tragic situation. I know a lot of people are hurting right now. So I guess the best thing for me is to stay silent and let time heal the pain. NHRA will cross these bridges when they come to them. Speculation is just that - speculation. So enough from me, you guys can continue to hash this out and decide what course of action NHRA should take if any.
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Triple Nickel II
Nitro Member
DCM
Nitro Member
Barriers such as those are designed for high impact angle crashes, which rarely, if ever, happen on a drag strip. Even if a car appears to hit the wall "head-on", it will almost always have minimal velocity toward the wall.
From a driver's perspective, they are designed to help prevent inertial injury and 'g'-load on the driver. No information as to the cause of Medlen's injury has been released or publicly discussed, and there is little data to support the installation of such barriers on drag strips.
You will notice on circle tracks, the barriers are only in the corners.
Also, the barriers are typically designed for the weight/speed of the cars. At a drag strip a deformable barrier that can handle 300+mph fuel cars with virtually no front ground clearance as well as other classes of stock body cars is probably not practical.
I hope I made a good inaugural post here on the 'mater......
From a driver's perspective, they are designed to help prevent inertial injury and 'g'-load on the driver. No information as to the cause of Medlen's injury has been released or publicly discussed, and there is little data to support the installation of such barriers on drag strips.
You will notice on circle tracks, the barriers are only in the corners.
Also, the barriers are typically designed for the weight/speed of the cars. At a drag strip a deformable barrier that can handle 300+mph fuel cars with virtually no front ground clearance as well as other classes of stock body cars is probably not practical.
I hope I made a good inaugural post here on the 'mater......
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