Quote from Antron Brown (1 Viewer)

[Crash]

It's not the LEDs, the PSBs are guessing when the light comes on, if they would quit doing that there wouldn't be hardly any redlights.

That's a joke, right?
I have not looked at the data, but I am guessing that most of the bulbs are between -.010 and -.030, is that reasonably accurate? If so, how could anyone guess within 10 or 30 hundredths of a second when the starter is going to flip the switch, also taking into account the random delay between the switch and the tree. if the lights were -.200, or before the tree was activated, I would buy the "guessing" theory. As is, no way.

 

[johnny]

That's a joke, right?
I have not looked at the data, but I am guessing that most of the bulbs are between -.010 and -.030, is that reasonably accurate? If so, how could anyone guess within 10 or 30 hundredths of a second when the starter is going to flip the switch, also taking into account the random delay between the switch and the tree. if the lights were -.200, or before the tree was activated, I would buy the "guessing" theory. As is, no way.

Look at the race results over the season, it's clear that the problem is more about gambling than set-up. The vast majority of the red bulbs are by covered bikes.

 

[Bob]

That's a joke, right?
I have not looked at the data, but I am guessing that most of the bulbs are between -.010 and -.030, is that reasonably accurate? If so, how could anyone guess within 10 or 30 hundredths of a second when the starter is going to flip the switch, also taking into account the random delay between the switch and the tree. if the lights were -.200, or before the tree was activated, I would buy the "guessing" theory. As is, no way.

Hey Tim, you better look at the stats from Vegas before you say no way.

 

[Bob]

Robert,
regardless of the fact that the qoute was posted somewhat out of context time wise the bikes definitely had a problem at Las Vegas. Three of twelve contests were not decided by the tree over the first two round and you can't put that many down to bad riders. As mentioned in another reply there appeared to be something awry at The Strip as regards the bikes. I spent quite a while with Jeff Foster in the tower at Indy early one morning during the Nats and learned just how delicate the situation is with the bikes regarding timing.
On the reaction time 'tron is right about the quicker reaction of the hand re the foot. It is a lot easier to unclench a fist than move your leg. Fuel cars are a totally different situation but pro stock cars have a lot more options in the area of air gap, pedal geometry etc to avoid red lighting versus the bikes.
As long as some of these riders have been doing this do you not think that they should be a little more consistent. The fact remains that it does not take a guess to bulb on a bike,

Roo Man

I agree Keith that they have a problem. So have I. So have you. What do we do? We fix it.

I don't expect the rider to try and adjust. That would be a poor solution. They need to quit whining and fix the problem. Somebody out there knows how to do that.

 

[johnny]

Vegas results...Avg. 'bad' bulb .051. 10 out of 11 redlights were by the slower bike. I'd offer Angelle/Stoffer and the Tonglet/Gann race were more legitimate bulbs. The reality that the bikes react quicker and, hand-eye coordination is faster than foot-eye, an .030 red bulb is a LOT worse (more of a gamble) on a bike than in a car.

 

[Rajunz]

Man there is alot of ignorance being expressed in this thread...................I also have a feeling that if the quote came from Andrew Hines, it would be concieved as valid instead of whining. Roo, Dunlap and a few others offer constructive solutions to the problem. others offer what????????

There is a problem with the bikes, it has effected the whole class this season, not just the Army camp..................

Personally, I think that there has to ba a solution right on the handlebars, with the fulcrum point of the clutch lever. Or perhaps run the cable through adjustable pulleys that can be tuned. I would think that someone smarter than me could come up with a way to tune the clutch lever.....................

 

[aafunnycar]

I'm not a hater, but I think this is easily explained in 3 words...
Wah
Wah
WAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!

 

[handsome]

here we go again. please somebody call in the wambulance. when nhra went to the led set up a lot of people were going red , including myself. after a couple of red lights i got out my 1/2 inch wrench and moved the pivot point on the clutch linkage one hole back making the travel farther on the pedal and SHAZAMM! the red lights went from .390 to .430-.450 green. and i didn't even break a sweat.

 

[Just Paul]

Screw it...this could go on and on for 500 posts, just like before.

Just go back to what was said on post #7, replace them with pro mods.

The only 2 reasons the stands are even half full when they run anyways is becasue #1 the people want to have a good seat for when the fuel cars run, and #2 Harley fans.

 

[Bob]

Man there is alot of ignorance being expressed in this thread...................I also have a feeling that if the quote came from Andrew Hines, it would be concieved as valid instead of whining. Roo, Dunlap and a few others offer constructive solutions to the problem. others offer what????????

There is a problem with the bikes, it has effected the whole class this season, not just the Army camp..................

Personally, I think that there has to ba a solution right on the handlebars, with the fulcrum point of the clutch lever. Or perhaps run the cable through adjustable pulleys that can be tuned. I would think that someone smarter than me could come up with a way to tune the clutch lever.....................

Lance, you're repeating what I already posted.

 

[Bob]

Vegas results...Avg. 'bad' bulb .051. 10 out of 11 redlights were by the slower bike. I'd offer Angelle/Stoffer and the Tonglet/Gann race were more legitimate bulbs. The reality that the bikes react quicker and, hand-eye coordination is faster than foot-eye, an .030 red bulb is a LOT worse (more of a gamble) on a bike than in a car.

At least 3 reds were between -.100/-.150. That's what I call terrible anticipation. Had NOTHING to do with the lights.

 

[Gordon]

I think it's safe to assume most of us acknowledge the fact that there's a problem with Red Lights in the Pro Stock Bike category. That many red lights during eliminations in any class is, or should be, unacceptable to the paying customer who wants to see true competition, with races decided in a heads-up race to the finish line.

Is it the riders? Is it the bikes? Is it the tree? Is it the tuners?

I submit to you that it's all of the above. Riders & drivers are taught to leave when they see yellow - if they wait for green, it's too late. And think about this, we're talking hundreds & sometimes thousandths of a second - that's less time than it takes to make one key stroke while typing this post! A good percentage of them have developed a starting line rhythm based on how the bikes were reacting two or more years ago, but look at the advances in horsepower. These aren't 2,225 lb. Top Fuel cars or 2,400 lb. funny cars we're talking about here - these are 590 - 615 lb. bikes. And Antron's right, like him or not - the aforementioned 2,225 lb. rails have offset front wheels to lengthen the rollout... which also happens to be one of the primary reasons they went back to the larger front wheels - increased rollout.

Another consideration is Sportman racing. Super Comp, Super Gas & Competiton Eliminator all have the ability to "delay" the launch (normally by the aforementioned thousandths of a second) right on the steering wheel (or very close to it), but that's not allowed in the Pro classes. So it's been an issue, or at least a consideration elsewhere in drag racing.

My proposal to anyone who cares is to add another dimension to the tree - a professional start, .300 green light for the bikes. I think Angelle suggested it earlier this year & caught hell for it, but as a fan (and I don't even really care about the bikes) I want to see green light starts, understanding of course they'll never be completely eliminated. And yes, I feel the tuners should be making changes to the bikes as well in an attempt to help the riders, be it in the clutch lever, the cable, whatever.

Bottom line, I think the competiton committee should be willing to discuss this during the off-season and both sides should be making concessions to improve the racing for all concerned.

 

[Crash]

At least 3 reds were between -.100/-.150. That's what I call terrible anticipation. Had NOTHING to do with the lights.

On those, I stand corrected...and I should have looked at the results before posting. It wouldn't have changed the basis of my opinion (that the odds of guessing within 2 or 3 hundredths of a second when the tree is coming down are astronomical) but it does look a little more likely that some people are guessing. adrenalin does strange things to you, and I imagine that knowing that you HAVE to cut a better light than your opponent could affect you dramatically.

 

[TJ]

In regards to the red light issue...If it ain't broke do not fix it....PSB could go away and not too many fans would care, they come to see anything w/ a huffer run down the strip.
They have a couple races of red-lights and the whole system should be change?
Those that red-lighted left to early, simple as that...

 

[johnny]

For the record, some teams have made an effort to change the bikes and the riders. Some solutions have been as simple as lever, and lever position changes to squeezing the lever with more pressure. The results for the most part have culminated in little change in performance. To suggest that the top teams haven't looked into the bikes for a solution is an insult to those that build and race them.

None the less, regardless of reason, the quality of the show is compromised.

 

[Keith Burgan]

Johnny,
I am with you there. Antron and I have had several long discussions on how to get around the problem. It is not as simple as some fans think. The fact remains that the bikes are the quickest reacting vehicles in the sport and do not have the benefit of electronics like the sportsman racers do. It is very easy to see the caution light and still go red on a bike while the fuel racers simply mat the throttle at the first hint of yellow.

Roo Man

 

[Bob]

adrenalin does strange things to you, and I imagine that knowing that you HAVE to cut a better light than your opponent could affect you dramatically.

NOBODY cuts fantastic lights all of the time but most of us will push the tree when we know the guy in the next lane is really good. So we end up with a red light and he cuts a .065 or worse. Adrenalin or stupidity?

 

[MoparBilly]

I think it's safe to assume most of us acknowledge the fact that there's a problem with Red Lights in the Pro Stock Bike category. That many red lights during eliminations in any class is, or should be, unacceptable to the paying customer who wants to see true competition, with races decided in a heads-up race to the finish line.

Is it the riders? Is it the bikes? Is it the tree? Is it the tuners?

I submit to you that it's all of the above. Riders & drivers are taught to leave when they see yellow - if they wait for green, it's too late. And think about this, we're talking hundreds & sometimes thousandths of a second - that's less time than it takes to make one key stroke while typing this post! A good percentage of them have developed a starting line rhythm based on how the bikes were reacting two or more years ago, but look at the advances in horsepower. These aren't 2,225 lb. Top Fuel cars or 2,400 lb. funny cars we're talking about here - these are 590 - 615 lb. bikes. And Antron's right, like him or not - the aforementioned 2,225 lb. rails have offset front wheels to lengthen the rollout... which also happens to be one of the primary reasons they went back to the larger front wheels - increased rollout.

Another consideration is Sportman racing. Super Comp, Super Gas & Competiton Eliminator all have the ability to "delay" the launch (normally by the aforementioned thousandths of a second) right on the steering wheel (or very close to it), but that's not allowed in the Pro classes. So it's been an issue, or at least a consideration elsewhere in drag racing.

My proposal to anyone who cares is to add another dimension to the tree - a professional start, .300 green light for the bikes. I think Angelle suggested it earlier this year & caught hell for it, but as a fan (and I don't even really care about the bikes) I want to see green light starts, understanding of course they'll never be completely eliminated. And yes, I feel the tuners should be making changes to the bikes as well in an attempt to help the riders, be it in the clutch lever, the cable, whatever.

Bottom line, I think the competiton committee should be willing to discuss this during the off-season and both sides should be making concessions to improve the racing for all concerned.

Gordon,
An excellent post, and an excellent proposal!
I think a close look at NHRA history is in order...Remember when every class raced on what is now considered a "sportsman tree", the .500 staggered 3 amber system?? The whole impetus for the now standard "Pro" .400 tree was to AVOID REDLIGHTS in the heads-up classes!! How many years ago, and how many performance upgrades have come along since it's inception??
The state of the art, modern, Super Gas chasiss, such as a Don Davis roadster, are now touted to "go .370 red, anywhere in the country", That way, the racer can always carry time in his delay box to adjust his lights.
If a 900HP SG car can go red at will on a .400 light, do you think a Modern PSB, or even Pro Stock car can't??

With the advent of the LED bulbs..Pro Stock cars were suddenly going red at will, but older Super Gas cars that could only go .430-.450 at best suddenly had new life!! NHRA's knee-jerk reaction was to filter the bulbs to slow them down, and it was the wrong move!! To steal a line from all you Super Class Haters..."When is it ever good to intentionally slow ANYTHING down in a drag race!".

My feeling is this. Take the darn filters off the LED bulbs, put the Pro Stock classes on a .300 tree and award the quicker leaving drivers and crewchiefs!!
There is already a precedent set in NHRA for this type of decision, in the formative years of Super Street, NHRA's declared "entry level category" for divisional and national competition, it was run on the same .400 pro tree that everyone else ran on, but after a few years it became evident that the typical low-buck SST cars with slapper bars, and stock front suspensions couldn't be competive, and were being forced out by the tree, so a concession was made, and SST is the only NHRA class to compete on a .500 pro tree!! If Super Street can have it's own tree, Why can't the Pro-stock classes?