Questions For Roger (1 Viewer)

[TopFuel@Lions]

Wanted to pick your brain Roger.

If you had the pen and could write the rulebook for Top Fuel, what would you do?

*Engines*
From the Supercharger to the oil pan, fuel system to the bellhousing?
*Gear Ratios*
*Weight*
*Nitro percentages*
*Wings*
*Tires*
*Engine management*
*Wheelbase*
*Number of qualifying runs and at what time?*
*Canopy or open cockpit?*
*ETC*

I look forward to your views.


TopFuel@Lions
Talladega Announcer

 

[Jimbo]

Mark Hendon:

I thought your question on changing the rule book for Top Fuel was interesting.

I have no idea why others have not commented so far.

Jim Hill

 

[Cliff]

Any changes would cost $$$. Maybe not a good idea right now. BUT, when the economy improves..... I really wish NHRA would go back to 1/4 mile. Lotsa ways to do that on the cheap, like blower overdrive, less nitro, etc etc. Ya know, maybe that is something that should be discussed by the nitro teams over the off season. Let the nitro teams come up with the rules & go from there. I think the 2021 season will see less spectators (unless changes by the states) and maybe less teams. Not trying to be negative. I really really want this (stuff) to be over with.

 

[Ramjet]

Driving on Vacation right now (59th Anniversary) but will comment later for what it's worth.

 

[none]

Any changes would cost $$$. Maybe not a good idea right now. BUT, when the economy improves..... I really wish NHRA would go back to 1/4 mile. Lotsa ways to do that on the cheap, like blower overdrive, less nitro, etc etc. Ya know, maybe that is something that should be discussed by the nitro teams over the off season. Let the nitro teams come up with the rules & go from there. I think the 2021 season will see less spectators (unless changes by the states) and maybe less teams. Not trying to be negative. I really really want this (stuff) to be over with.

Cliff,

If you really want to go back to 1320 you're not talking blower overdrive restrictions. It would take removing the blowers completely. Megan Meyer went 5.09 and has gone 285+ 1/4 mile with 420 cubic inches and no clutch management. Give Randy Meyer 500 CI and management and he will be running 480s at 305 by the end of the week. To go back to 1/4 mile you don't need to take 500 horsepower away, you need to take 5ooo HP away. Do you really want to do that to essentially add one more second to the race?

As always, this is just my opinion.

Alan

 

[tom]

Cliff,

If you really want to go back to 1320 you're not talking blower overdrive restrictions. It would take removing the blowers completely. Megan Meyer went 5.09 and has gone 285+ 1/4 mile with 420 cubic inches and no clutch management. Give Randy Meyer 500 CI and management and he will be running 480s at 305 by the end of the week. To go back to 1/4 mile you don't need to take 500 horsepower away, you need to take 5ooo HP away. Do you really want to do that to essentially add one more second to the race?

As always, this is just my opinion.

Alan

excellent response, hope this is last of 1/4 mile speculation

 

[mike]

Alan was there any discussion of all classes going to 1000ft. format?

 

[T.Smith]

Any changes would cost $$$. Maybe not a good idea right now. BUT, when the economy improves..... I really wish NHRA would go back to 1/4 mile. Lotsa ways to do that on the cheap, like blower overdrive, less nitro, etc etc. Ya know, maybe that is something that should be discussed by the nitro teams over the off season. Let the nitro teams come up with the rules & go from there. I think the 2021 season will see less spectators (unless changes by the states) and maybe less teams. Not trying to be negative. I really really want this (stuff) to be over with.

Ask a Pro Mod team what they're paying per weekend to lease one of those less overdrive blowers, let alone what one costs outright.

1/4 mile has been discussed by PRO and it's not happening.

 

[Cliff]

Guess it wouldn't do me any good to protest, like stand outside NHRA offices with a sign that sez "NHRA Unfair To 1/4 Milers". Naw...... Alan is right. But wait....... Unblown with nitrous, say 8 stages..... 4.60's and 320.... heh heh heh

 

[T.Smith]

Guess it wouldn't do me any good to protest, like stand outside NHRA offices with a sign that sez "NHRA Unfair To 1/4 Milers". Naw...... Alan is right. But wait....... Unblown with nitrous, say 8 stages..... 4.60's and 320.... heh heh heh

You'd be standing outside the wrong offices.

 

[Cliff]

OK, won't protest. Someone I can't mention told me Cliff! It's 1000' and ain't gonna change. Live with it. So fooey. I'll go eat some ice cream & be quiet now.

 

[Nick Name]

To bring the purse up, they need to cater to the spectators. Go ahead with three days, but the nitro show should be a Sunday only event. Friday and Saturday could ber for all that other stuff they run, along with nitro tune up shots if they wanted.

Sunday would be run Chicago style. All run first round. Second round, draw names for opponent, and all run again. Final, two quickest ET's race for the win.

Spectators could attend without having to get a hotel room, yet see all the nitro cars run.

 

[Ramjet]

If you had the pen and could write the rulebook for Top Fuel, what would you do?

*Engines*
From the Supercharger to the oil pan, fuel system to the bellhousing?
*Gear Ratios*
*Weight*
*Nitro percentages*
*Wings*
*Tires*
*Engine management*
*Wheelbase*
*Number of qualifying runs and at what time?*
*Canopy or open cockpit?*
*ETC*

Thanks for asking me, but rewriting the rules for TopFuel is a Fools Errand in my opinion. You cannot ever make everyone happy, but you CAN make enough people unhappy to really screw things up. Trying to make what was good decades ago work again just can't and won't happen. Not only are the racers (now teams) different - the structure is different and the core spectators are different. Although the entrys in the "Pro" Classes are a business almost all of them are not a primary business. It is a situation where there are mostly "Haves" and and a very few "Have Nots". We cannot penalize the "Haves" to make the "Have Nots" equal and still maintain the integrity of the sport. I fully agree with running 1000 feet and believe that all Pro classes would benefit from this from an attrition and safety point. Having tried to watch runs from everywhere (behind the Starting Line to the Finish Line) the only conclusion I can come up with is it makes no difference if the track is 1320 feet or 1000 feet as far actually watching the run. If we would post the E.T. in Swahili and the Speed in Greek very - very few people could tell the difference. The real winners would be the teams even though there still probably would not be many more teams. Now saying all this here is what are the strong and weak points from the list above for me.

Engines - From the Supercharger to the oil pan, fuel system to the bellhousing?
Basic Block and Head configurations are proven and semi reliable. Components also because no matter who makes them no one seems to have better or more reliable parts. The big deal is the Bellhousing. It needs to be restricted to a length that will only fit a four disk clutch and here is why. When you see teams with multi thousand square feet buldings just for their million dollar plus clutch programs with dedicated specialists it becomes evident that it is the Clutch Program MORE than even the Engine that makes good things happen.

Gear Ratio - Hard to change because lower will blow up more parts and higher will require a different tire which I don't think Good Year will be interested in safety as well as cost wise.

Weight - Lighter weight really won't make much difference past maybe 100 feet because of down force and aero.

Nitro Percentages - 90 Max is good. On a lot of tracks 90 is even too much. This isn't the old days where saying 98% made people say "Ooh - Ah". Actually having at least 5 to 10% Methonal is a better compound.

Wings - These are very refined components on both ends of the car that are good to go and don't need to be changed.

Tires - This has more to do with Goodyear than anyone else. Even if 1320 feet became an option with cars that could go the same speed the tires would be subject to the severe abuse for another 320 feet than they are now and probably would have more problems and they could decide that it just isn't worth it liability wise.

Engine Management - Probably the best thing that has happened to the class as far as attrition and cost goes. Also I think Clutch Management goes hand in hand with this.

Wheelbase - Absolutely no longer, but much shorter would require more static weight on the front. The chassis need some serious thinking about what to do about the break away zone and "Tired Pipe". If you make an imaginary X with the tires the driver needs to sit behind the center of the X so he/she can feel what is happening.

Number of qualifying runs and at what time? - The only reason for the four Qualifiers is to bring in Friday spectators. If the car count and spectators don't support it there is no up side because of cost which includes more than the runs. Some people don't realize that with the laws as they are today workers must be compensated for more than eight to ten hours and that includes the racers and the tracks. It might be an option to have Friday and Saturday races in hot weather but the Friday night qualifying which is spectactular means nothing unless there is Saturday night racing.

Canopy or Open Cuckpit - Driver / Owners choice now that the cowl and wind screens have been raised and reconfigured.

ETC. - I do not have much in ETC. except that Top Fuel from the old days to today are only related in the fact that they have the same name. The "Glory Days" of Top Fuel had guys with a Day job - a will to race - usually some volunteer help and a local Bone yard with 354" and 392" Chrysler engines for about $100 to start with and some hard work. They also slept in their own beds except for a few times a year and probably spent about the same percentage of money spent to money made as today. The difference is the zero's involved with those numbers. The racers - fans - promoters (NHRA) and every one else are equally to be blamed for demanding a greater spectacle every race.

 

[Cliff]

The idea of Chicago style racing might work. That is really "show business", which has always been a part of drag racing. I have been to a lot of spectacle races (OCIR as example), where you have the cars & some type of show. Wheelstanding tanks, guy on a motorcycle with a kite wing jumping 20 cars, jet funny cars, go kart with a rocket engine, you name it. That always brought in the spectators. Maybe NHRA needs to "evolve" into a kind of show like that? The way it's set up now, the sportsmen classes are the "filler" and keeps things going. I guess NHRA could run a "Pro only" show, but what would you do with the downtime? Etc etc.

OK, just to tick everyone off. 1/8 mile show with all heads up classes. NHRA Pros plus Outlaw, radial tire, 632, etc etc. Maybe throw in a certain Stude with a nitro motor.....

 

[TopFuel@Lions]

Cliff, Chicago style for national events, sure you jest.

Thank you Roger for your viewpoints on my questions, as usual concise and direct. I have read your views a couple of times, I so respect your opinions. You have driven that, been oiled on, been on fire thru the lights at Ontario staring at that wing, thanks for your answers.

Cliff, the sportsman classes are fillers in your view, not mine. Not being offensive, just strongly disagreeing with you view on the filler part.

TopFuel@Lions
Talladega Announcer

 

[Cliff]

Mark, I wasn't jesting, y'all, about Chicago style. Just a suggestion, but was thinking about would spectators go for it? I remember going to these shows and enjoyed seeing the cars run 3X. Would something like that bring more spectators? (Would they understand Chicago elims?) As far as sportsmen being "fillers" - I hate to use that word, cuz I love the sportsmen too. But the way NHRA has the race set up, there is little down time, cuz the sportsmen cars race until it's time for all the finals. I once went to Ontario when they did an all "Pro" show. At the time, T/F, F/C P/S and they added Pro Comp. Was a great show, but to be honest, the action slowed way down when they got close to the finals. I think they had some exhibition cars or bikes to kinda fill the downtime, but waiting for the finals was not a lot of fun. The NHRA races of today are fast paced & you don't have that "nothing going on" time.

 

[Ramjet]

You have driven that, been oiled on, been on fire thru the lights at Ontario staring at that wing, thanks for your answers.
Talladega Announcer

About that Ontario thing. We tied Wiebe for low E.T. qualifying, but he got it by 1/4 MPH so we were second. Quite a few cars were already Rear Motor by then and I got Clayton Harris in Round 1. At about 1200 feet $hit started falling off and I couldn't see him. Harris was the defending World Champ and I could see the finish line and this was my first chance to win a Major. It got oily real quick and then the fire came. Drove straight toward the Foam truck and they blasted me with foam which put out the fire. I won the race but lost the war. I made the Hospital drive me back to the track to get back for round two. They didn't get the car done in time (too much fire damage) and our day was done. Still got pictures in my shop to remind me that FIRE is stronger than I am.

 

[aakar]

To bring the purse up, they need to cater to the spectators. Go ahead with three days, but the nitro show should be a Sunday only event. Friday and Saturday could ber for all that other stuff they run, along with nitro tune up shots if they wanted.

Sunday would be run Chicago style. All run first round. Second round, draw names for opponent, and all run again. Final, two quickest ET's race for the win.

Spectators could attend without having to get a hotel room, yet see all the nitro cars run.

Back to ’70’s match racing? For a one day event, spectators would want Saturday and Saturday night, Sundays would not work, plus they would still need a qualifying day. How about Saturday daytime qualifying and nite time eliminations?

 

[Cliff]

About that Ontario thing. We tied Wiebe for low E.T. qualifying, but he got it by 1/4 MPH so we were second. Quite a few cars were already Rear Motor by then and I got Clayton Harris in Round 1. At about 1200 feet $hit started falling off and I couldn't see him. Harris was the defending World Champ and I could see the finish line and this was my first chance to win a Major. It got oily real quick and then the fire came. Drove straight toward the Foam truck and they blasted me with foam which put out the fire. I won the race but lost the war. I made the Hospital drive me back to the track to get back for round two. They didn't get the car done in time (too much fire damage) and our day was done. Still got pictures in my shop to remind me that FIRE is stronger than I am.

Roger, what year was that? End of 1972? You were still in a front motor car from your description. Wiebe had that Donovan 417 that had run 6.17 at Lions that year. Harris had the New Dimensions car, set the ET record at Lions. What kind of ET's were you running? 6.30's?

 

[Pete]

Roger, what year was that? End of 1972? You were still in a front motor car from your description. Wiebe had that Donovan 417 that had run 6.17 at Lions that year. Harris had the New Dimensions car, set the ET record at Lions. What kind of ET's were you running? 6.30's?

geez, I wasn't even born yet

Its gentlemen like you that keep the memories of our past alive! Thank you!!