Illegal alien march...sponsored by Miller Beer! (1 Viewer)

[ProStockJunkie]

Jackee, the situation that I see here is one , that they DONT wish to become American Citizens, they just want the Milk without any responsibility for the Cow!

From what I see Pete, I believe you're right.

My mother came here from Holland. She and her siblings and parents learned English to survive. They were so happy to come to America, and trust me, Holland was and is not an impoverished nation. But the saw the American Dream and wanted to persue it. And they did it legally. When my mother became a citizen, it was the proudest day of her life. And she loved this country until the day she died.

She respected this country and it's laws. I am not against immigration. I AM against people who come into this country illegally, then demand, yes, demand the same rights and privileges as it's citizens. And I am actively involved with urging the government to stop the daily flow of illegals into the country, as well as enforcing the immigration laws already in place. I bearly make enough money to support myself and I do not want my tax money being spent on people who have no respect for this country, our laws, or me.

That doesn't even address the possibility of terrorists entering through our open Southern borders which is a whole different subject.

 

[Rich]

...The problem is that some people illegally enter our country. As such they should be deported back to where they came from and asked to enter through the proper channels.

I agree.

I would also support tougher sanctions for those that hire undocumented workers. For instance, like it or not, there is currently an insta-check system in place for the purchase of firearms. Why not have a similar system in place to check the Social Security numbers of new hires?

In the end though, I don't think there are any quick and easy solutions to the problem of illegal immigration. So long as people face economic hardship and political instability in their native countries they will naturally gravitate to those areas where there are jobs and possibilities for a better life. This is just a part of human nature. That is why I believe that this problem cannot be truly resolved until a way can be found to raise the standard of living in Mexico and other poor countries. And while some may accuse me of having my head in the clouds, it should be remembered that during the 1970's the Europeans faced a similar situation with Spain and Portugal, both of which were ruled my military dictatorships and had low wage economies. But unlike NAFTA, the Europeans found a way to reach agreements with Spain and Portugal that promoted political stability and economic growth in both these countries without compromising the standards and economies of the Europeans. Today Spain and Portugal are both politically and economically stable.

It seems to me then that we should learn from the example of Spain and Portugal in that we should only enter into those agreements that will serve to raise the political and economic standards in countries like Mexico to those of the US and Canada. By doing so we would not only be doing what is in the best interests of our own citizens, I believe it would also go a long way to solving the problem of illegal immigration at our southern border.

 

[Nitrohaulic]

Given the fact that I only responded to an unproven claim that "illegals" are a "drain on systems while paying no income tax" the burden of proof does not lie with me. However, since we all know that by law undocumented workers are ineligible for government benefits, and that taxes are withheld from their paychecks just as they are for US citizens, I would say that I have already provided more evidence in my claim than did the person who made the original assertion to which I responded. Perhaps I should likewise ask you to provide documentation for the claim that your tax dollars are going to "illegal aliens."

I also made it clear in my original post that I "neither condone nor support illegal immigration." But if I am to be considered a part of the problem due simply to my refusal to join the nativists among us in some sort of xenophobic crusade, then so be it.

Wow. "Unproven claim." Go to Home Depot or wherever it is in your town at 5-6AM where they gather and tell me how many you think are having anything deducted from their pay. Having no deductions is the instant earning benefit they have from dollar one. Who needs to have this "proven" to them in order to realize it?

I'm not kidding when I say take this country down from the inside. They're a drain on our systems now and they're still pouring across the border daily. How many come across at the last minute to drop their "anchor babies"?

I heard an interesting discussion about this a few months ago. So many are trying to get things passed so that these people can be legal illegal workers. Like in the example I heard, someday your kid is going to try to get a job at Burger King. Burger King will say "Sorry, but we have people here for $2 an hour less than minimum wage." If your kid says "Well, I'll work for that too, if I have to." They're going to turn around and say "Sorry, it's ILLEGAL for us to pay YOU less than minimum wage."

 

[ProStockJunkie]

http://www.minutemanhq.com/

 

[Rich]

Wow. "Unproven claim." Go to Home Depot or wherever it is in your town at 5-6AM where they gather and tell me how many you think are having anything deducted from their pay. Having no deductions is the instant earning benefit they have from dollar one. Who needs to have this "proven" to them in order to realize it?

I too have seen those folks outside of places like Home Depot and do not deny that many undocumented workers do indeed work "under the table." But by far that is not true of the majority that are here.

My parents and grandparents are from the Yakima Valley here in Washington. As a teenager I would spend my summers working for my great grandfather, who made his living growing apples, cherries, and pears. Additionally, for eight years starting when I was in the second grade, I lived in the Salinas Valley of California which is also an agricultural area. During those years I had a lot of exposure to immigrants - both legal and illegal. My experience taught me that most of these folks are decent, hard working people who only want what is best for themselves and their families.

Three years ago I moved from Seattle to the Skagit Valley, which is also an agricultural area, and I can tell you that there are a lot of immigrants - both documented and undocumented - who alive here as well. It is easy to observe that most of those immigrant workers living here are employed at regular jobs and not hanging out in the parking lot of the local Home Depot hoping to get work that will pay them under the table. I will only add that there is NOTHING in my experiences of the past three years that would cause me to change my earlier opinion formed years ago that the overwhelming majority of these folks are good, decent people who are assets to our community.

...someday your kid is going to try to get a job at Burger King. Burger King will say "Sorry, but we have people here for $2 an hour less than minimum wage." If your kid says "Well, I'll work for that too, if I have to." They're going to turn around and say "Sorry, it's ILLEGAL for us to pay YOU less than minimum wage."

In the hypothetical scenerio you put forward the employer would be engaging in an illegal practice. In that case they should be held to account and prosecuted.

 

[ProStockJunkie]

I too have seen those folks outside of places like Home Depot and do not deny that many undocumented workers do indeed work "under the table." But by far that is not true of the majority that are here.

My parents and grandparents are from the Yakima Valley here in Washington. As a teenager I would spend my summers workeding for my great grandfather, who made his living growing apples, cherries, and pears. Additionally, for eight years starting when I was in the second grade, I lived in the Salinas Valley of California which is also an agricultural area. During those years I had a lot of exposure to immigrants - both legal and illegal. My experience taught me that most of these folks are decent, hard working people who only want what is best for themselves and their families.

Three years ago I moved from Seattle to the Skagit Valley, which is also an agricultural area, and I can tell you that there are a lot of immigrants - both documented and undocumented - who also live here. It is easy to observe that most of those immigrant workers living here are employed at regular jobs and not hanging out in the parking lot of the local Home Depot hoping to get work at a job that will pay them under the table. I will only add that there is NOTHING in my experiences of the past three years that would cause me to change my earlier opinion formed years ago that the overwhelming majority of these folks are good, decent people who are assets to our community.



In the hypothetical scenerio you put forward the employer would be engaging in an illegal practice. In that case they should be held to account and prosecuted.

I agree that most are decent, hard working people. The fact is that they broke the laws of the United States of America by coming here illegally. Does being decent and hard working absolve a person from breaking the law? I don't think so.

 

[Rich]

I agree that most are decent, hard working people. The fact is that they broke the laws of the United States of America by coming here illegally. Does being decent and hard working absolve a person from breaking the law? I don't think so.

No, it does not absolve them from breaking the law. And if they are caught, I agree that they should be deported. It seems to me that the possibility of deportation is one of the risks that one takes when one decides to cross the border illegally.

 

[Nitrohaulic]

"I too have seen those folks outside of places like Home Depot and do not deny that many undocumented workers do indeed work "under the table." But by far that is not true of the majority that are here."

I think that's a statistic we'd have to argue about. I do not think most illegals are having payroll deductions taken out. The appeal to hiring them in the first place is that you can pay them less. No deductions is the major reason you're ABLE to.

I have no problem with immigrants until you put the word "illegal" in front of it. I don't blame them. They're doing what I'd do if I were in their shoes. As I've said many times, if I could sneak across the Canadian border and earn ten times what I do here, call me an illegal, too. Just say it quickly if you want me to hear it, because I'm OUTA HERE! Call me a dryback!

But, I would NOT be pulling Canadian flags down, stomping on them, then raisng an American flag. I'd make my money and I'd keep my damn mouth shut! Actually, I'd feel humiliated that my own country was so corrupt that I'd HAVE to leave in the first place!

 

[Don]

"

Actually, I'd feel humiliated that my own country was so corrupt that I'd HAVE to leave in the first place!

That's it in a nutshell

 

[knightrider]

If they are hired as contract labor, no taxes of any kind are deducted from their check.

 

[ProStockJunkie]

http://urbanlegends.about.com/gi/dy...http://michellemalkin.com/archives/004869.htm

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_mexican_flag.htm?terms=core+plus

 

[Don]

Given the fact that I only responded to an unproven claim that "illegals" are a "drain on systems while paying no income tax" the burden of proof does not lie with me. .

Well, this is what you wrote;
"The truth is, undocumented workers pay more in taxes than they receive in benefits."

If you were expressing an opinion, then you should word it as such.

Truth indicates facts.

 

[Rich]

Undocumented immigrants compose about three percent of the total US population. (Josiah Heyman of the University of Texas at El Paso)

The estimated seven million or so illegal immigrant workers in the United States are now providing the Social Security system with a subsidy of about $7 billion a year. (The New York Times)

Immigrants contribute billions of dollars annually but receive no public pension in retirement, are not eligible for Medicare, and are not entitled to any other benefits. (Social Security Administration)

Most undocumented workers pay taxes, and they pay a variety of taxes. (The New York Times)

The money that undocumented immigrants paid in 2004 added up to about 10 percent of that year's surplus - the difference between what the system currently receives in payroll taxes and what it pays in pension benefits. (Social Security Administration)

The money paid by illegal workers and their employers is factored into all the Social Security Administration's projections. (Social Security Administration)

After the 1986 passage of the Immigration Reform and Control Act, the Social Security Administration began receiving mountains of W-2 earnings reports with incorrect or fake Social Security numbers, and placed them in the "earnings suspense file." Since then, the file has grown, on average, by more than $50 billion a year, generating $6 billion to $7 billion in Social Security tax revenue and about $1.5 billion in Medicare taxes. (Center for Urban Economic Development at the University of Illinois at Chicago)

Many older workers return home to Latin America when they reach retirement age. (BusinessWeek)

You're right: use of the word 'truth' does indicate facts.

 

[Nitrohaulic]

Rich, you did oppose what I said with

I too have seen those folks outside of places like Home Depot and do not deny that many undocumented workers do indeed work "under the table." But by far that is not true of the majority that are here.

I doubt either one of us has access to any accurate polling data concerning what percentage of illegals pay or don't pay income tax because I don't think doing an accurate poll on that topic is even possible. I'm making an unproven allegation one way just like you're making one another.

However, IF the majority of employers hiring illegals are doing so "legally", as in taking deductions out of their pay (which would then land them into paying workers comp, matching social security, etc, etc.), then what's the frickin point of hiring an illegal in the first place? It's done to be a financial win-win for both parties.

 

[Don]

You're right: use of the word 'truth' does indicate facts.

Well, I don’t know about you, but;

I cannot drive into another state, with my pregnant wife, go into a town, take my pregnant wife to a hospital where she will be taken in, the child born, services rendered, the child then automatically becomes a citizen of that state…and all this costs me NOTHING. Can you? This happens each and every single day in America when pregnant illegal aliens sneak into our country.

I cannot walk into a state office-ask for and receive, welfare, food stamps, housing, health-care, education, and God only knows what else. Can you?

I cannot walk into a store and wire $40 billion a year back to my family in Mexico…They say it is extremely difficult to wire money OUT of Mexico. They want to keep their money in their country, but we let $40 billion leave to keep the obscensly courrpt government of Mexico in US dollars.

I cannot drive across the Ohio River into Indiana, and go to Indiana University and pay state resident tuition. Can you? To do so, I would have to prove I was a resident of Indiana…Not to worry if I am in this country illegally…I can pay the state resident rate. Some states are getting ready to offer illegal student aid.

I cannot sneak into to Mexico and demand and receive education for my children. Can you?

I cannot sneak into Mexico and demand and receive the right to vote in Mexican elections. Can you?

So what if they pay into social security…..THEY’RE HERE ILLEGALLY. Let them go the legal route to immigration, I have no problem with that. Let them get a REAL…their own SS number.

I know they live in a sh!t country, but millions of people come into this country legally, and I don’t blame them for wanting to come here, and regardless of the hardships, regardless if they pay SS taxes, regardless, regardless, regardless……..WE ARE EITHER A NATION OF LAW….OR WE’RE NOT, plain and simple There is no straddling the fence, and THAT is the TRUTH.

 

[Nitrohaulic]

Undocumented immigrants compose about three percent of the total US population. (Josiah Heyman of the University of Texas at El Paso)

The estimated seven million or so illegal immigrant workers in the United States are now providing the Social Security system with a subsidy of about $7 billion a year. (The New York Times)

Immigrants contribute billions of dollars annually but receive no public pension in retirement, are not eligible for Medicare, and are not entitled to any other benefits. (Social Security Administration)

Most undocumented workers pay taxes, and they pay a variety of taxes. (The New York Times)

The money that undocumented immigrants paid in 2004 added up to about 10 percent of that year's surplus - the difference between what the system currently receives in payroll taxes and what it pays in pension benefits. (Social Security Administration)

The money paid by illegal workers and their employers is factored into all the Social Security Administration's projections. (Social Security Administration)

After the 1986 passage of the Immigration Reform and Control Act, the Social Security Administration began receiving mountains of W-2 earnings reports with incorrect or fake Social Security numbers, and placed them in the "earnings suspense file." Since then, the file has grown, on average, by more than $50 billion a year, generating $6 billion to $7 billion in Social Security tax revenue and about $1.5 billion in Medicare taxes. (Center for Urban Economic Development at the University of Illinois at Chicago)

Many older workers return home to Latin America when they reach retirement age. (BusinessWeek)

Looks like a lot of cherry picked facts given to provide a certain slant.

7 million providing 7 billion to social security? Again, why would any employer hire an illegal and pay them "legally"? If you're going to go through the expense of doing deductions, matching social security, paying worker's comp, conforming to OSHA, and who knows how many other expenses, why would you also expose yourself to legal prosecution? Where's the motivation? How are these people "documenting" the "undocumented"? This is the lowest estimate I've heard, between 7 million and 40 million, with most landing around 12-15 million.

As far as the New York Times bit. "Most undocumented workers pay taxes, and they pay a variety of taxes." Well, hell yeah, an illegal is going to pay sales tax whenever they buy something because they don't have a choice (the same way they SHOULD be paying income tax and social security at the register). I would say that number is more like "all" instead of "most." Money's no good if you can't spend it. They're a net tax LOSS because a legal American would have also paid income tax on the money before they ever paid sales tax. Saying they pay taxes doesn't make up for the fact that they pay fewer taxes than a legal. This is no different than cutting the rate of growth of programs (when it's still growing) and hearing people scream about cuts, as if it's a net cut.

How in the world can anyone say that most illegals pay income tax? Again, how would you even start to conduct that poll? As far as the word "many" on that last statement, how many are "many"? I'm always suspicious when when I hear media using variable terms in the place of numbers. Sounds like a term that "felt good" to someone. Many?

You want to see protests in the streets? Collect income tax and social security at the cash register on the outgo instead of on the income. THEN you'll hear millions of people raising hell about paying into a system they can't collect out of. If they're arrogant enough to come here and step on our flag?

And, who thinks a guest worker program is all of a sudden going to cause minimum wage laws to be enforced? The only ones I hear of being deported as it is are the ones caught breaking laws other than for being here. Nobody's going around and rounding up illegals doing nothing other than working here.

A friend of mine from Jersey says the going rate for a day's labor out of one from a Home Depot is $100. Try hiring a legal American in the same part of the country and getting away with $100 a day after you pay all the above mentioned expenses. You'll not even come close.

 

[Old Sg]

Before this was an issue(illegal entry into the U.S.) our country was doing just fine.

Entering into the U.S. illegally is a crime. Forging documents to gain entry or using forged documents is a crime.

I just don't understand why people don't understand the word "illegal" or "crime". If we choose not to enforce the laws of our nation, states, and communities that would mean that we would be on our way to becoming a lawless nation eventually.

 

[Toejam]

I'm glad they're bailing on NHRA! They have another agenda anymore.

 

[Nitrohaulic]

I've been driving trucks for twenty years, hauling a lot of produce for the first several. I've never seen anyone who appeared to be a legal American working in fields (including hauling your apples out of the northwest). Actually, I've had the same people load my trailers in different states because they follow the harvest season as it moves north. The same Haitians loading me in south Florida in early Spring would be loading me in Maryland in early Summer.

Yeah, the arrogance and irony of coming here, stomping on our flag, then hoisting their own is mind boggling. If they're THAT proud of Mexico, then they should bring their pesos with them and leave our awful dollars alone.

 

[Nitrohaulic]

I'm glad they're bailing on NHRA! They have another agenda anymore.

Bill O'Reilly reported on the Miller thing last night, so it's definitely getting attention around the world now.

You know? Maybe I DO like our "politics free" format better! I always had problems with those who thought "our side can do no wrong, your side can do no right" partisanship along with insulting and personal attacks were debating, anyways. Now you can't lean on that. We can discuss issues and if you have a belief one way or another, you can to back it up with reasons. Works for me.