JRX
Nitro Member
That sounds like fun Guy...I might of jumped a little hard defending the honor of the alky classes there...sorry. (too many jellybeans and chocolate yesterday)
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- Thread starter cephus
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That sounds like fun Guy...I might of jumped a little hard defending the honor of the alky classes there...sorry. (too many jellybeans and chocolate yesterday)
Justin@NRE
Nitro Member
God help us.. More parity fun...
The big reason alky went to the regional deal is car counts as well as track owners. When there were 35-36 alky divisionals, they were lucky to fill a field in both classes, especially in certain parts of the country. Car owners/racers say "purse sucks, promote your races and pay us more or we can't afford to keep going", track owners say "How can I promote a show when I'm only getting 4 total alky cars?". NHRA steps in, cuts the number of races, ups the lower round money by a VERY little bit, ups the championship purses and changes the way divisional events are tallied in your National points. This definitely hurt several teams, namely those in Texas and in the southeast. It also hurt the smaller guy's chances of qualifying. You could have a 5.90-6.0 car and qualify at short/perfect(only 8 show up) field races. Now with fewer races, more cars supposedly show for each event, which has happened. Several tracks across the country have become reliant on the back gate(entry fees from racers) to make their money from the Divisionals. These are typically the same tracks that don't like Alcohol cars because we chew up so much of the payout, typically require the most track/crew resources, and typically complain the most about paying the entry fees. So the Regional deal was supposed to help this as well. Problem is there were quite a few tracks that wanted Alcohol cars that lost them because of compromises having to be made.
"Well that sucks, what can we do about it?" We started the Pro Sportsman Association with the goal of creating more fanfare around the Alky classes. Creating a better show and a better fan experience towards Top Alcohol racing at Regionals and Nationals. Baders are successful at Norwalk because of the excitement and importance around the racers and cars that THEY manufacture with the cooperation of teams. Autograph sessions, treating drivers publicly like they are as big a deal as one of their PRO counterparts, treating the show/race the same way. These are the kinds of things we're trying to help create with the Pro Sportsman Association. It takes time to implement these things and work the logistics with the tracks and NHRA. You can sit and blame the tracks and NHRA, but that doesn't get anyone anywhere.
Just like in the real world, when you want more money and recognition, you need to add value to yourself and prove you're worthy of the extra money. Just like you would a sponsor or an employer.
The big reason alky went to the regional deal is car counts as well as track owners. When there were 35-36 alky divisionals, they were lucky to fill a field in both classes, especially in certain parts of the country. Car owners/racers say "purse sucks, promote your races and pay us more or we can't afford to keep going", track owners say "How can I promote a show when I'm only getting 4 total alky cars?". NHRA steps in, cuts the number of races, ups the lower round money by a VERY little bit, ups the championship purses and changes the way divisional events are tallied in your National points. This definitely hurt several teams, namely those in Texas and in the southeast. It also hurt the smaller guy's chances of qualifying. You could have a 5.90-6.0 car and qualify at short/perfect(only 8 show up) field races. Now with fewer races, more cars supposedly show for each event, which has happened. Several tracks across the country have become reliant on the back gate(entry fees from racers) to make their money from the Divisionals. These are typically the same tracks that don't like Alcohol cars because we chew up so much of the payout, typically require the most track/crew resources, and typically complain the most about paying the entry fees. So the Regional deal was supposed to help this as well. Problem is there were quite a few tracks that wanted Alcohol cars that lost them because of compromises having to be made.
"Well that sucks, what can we do about it?" We started the Pro Sportsman Association with the goal of creating more fanfare around the Alky classes. Creating a better show and a better fan experience towards Top Alcohol racing at Regionals and Nationals. Baders are successful at Norwalk because of the excitement and importance around the racers and cars that THEY manufacture with the cooperation of teams. Autograph sessions, treating drivers publicly like they are as big a deal as one of their PRO counterparts, treating the show/race the same way. These are the kinds of things we're trying to help create with the Pro Sportsman Association. It takes time to implement these things and work the logistics with the tracks and NHRA. You can sit and blame the tracks and NHRA, but that doesn't get anyone anywhere.
Just like in the real world, when you want more money and recognition, you need to add value to yourself and prove you're worthy of the extra money. Just like you would a sponsor or an employer.
Raconteur
Nitro Member
Very well said!
I doubt there is a track that has lost 100k on a division event.
Div. 6 gets the lowest car counts for a div race and when you add up the costs 300 cars is very close to the break even point, and that seems to be the number they get in that division. Plus four of the tracks that host divisionals up here spend more on advertising than most do and three of the four tracks are constantly fighting for the one extra div race that sometimes is offered. I would be shocked if any div track has lost 50k on a div race. If they have and stayed on as a host, they are nuts. Average back gate income for 300 cars (including crew is 100k) purse is approx 50,000, nhra fee is 20,000-25,000 do the rest of the math
Dean
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Your group is doing what needs to be done. Thank you. For those of us who support the fastest quarter mile cars in the NHRA - charge on! Your success is much appreciated.
Cheers,
Ed
Raconteur
Nitro Member
Well Dean, you are mistaken.
The problem is that there are only four Baders and they are all at the same place, Norwalk. Now if you got rid of Compton and Light and put the Baders in charge of NHRA it would do nothing but improve.
My post was an average for Division 6 car counts for an LODRS event. Fallon does get less cars, but they are still hosting an event this year ( and have for 5 or more years), No way a small track like then could aford to lose that much money even 10k would be too much for them. Bakersfield had one in 2011 and now don't likley it is them your are talking about since you are buds with the operators, but unless they pay rent on a race by race basis (doubt it) and got charged a huge amount for rent I call bull ****. 320 paying cars before any brackets (if they had brackets, many track have at least one bracket class)
Their income was 52K plus 44K for crew (includes 2.5 crew per team...NHRA average is a bit higher) No spectator gate is included
purse was 16K for the two TA classes the rest of the classes had a total purse of less than 28K (based on NHRA purse structure)
Still call bull****. The operator you talked to were feeding you an embelished total. Not trying to argue just telling you they gave you false info/ (you can do the math)
Dean
Their income was 52K plus 44K for crew (includes 2.5 crew per team...NHRA average is a bit higher) No spectator gate is included
purse was 16K for the two TA classes the rest of the classes had a total purse of less than 28K (based on NHRA purse structure)
Still call bull****. The operator you talked to were feeding you an embelished total. Not trying to argue just telling you they gave you false info/ (you can do the math)
Dean
Justin, the Purse for Alky cars at both Div/ Natl's hasn't increased in over 10 years or more! I have been to Div. races in Tucson, Phoenix and Denver! Those races Rarely get any advertising! Is that the racers' fault??
And when NHRA owned tracks are dropping the Alky classes, what message does that send?
cephus
Nitro Member
the suits dont give a rats ass bout alky they only tolerate cause of LUCAS and its is just money 2 Lucas, people like Force, Kalitta and Shu that owe a lot of their fortunes to drag racing and the fans culd help if they wuld,, it wuld b a tax rite off to them but they care wen it benefits them only, the good ole american way
WEN I WIN THE LOTTO , ILL FIX IT
WEN I WIN THE LOTTO , ILL FIX IT
Treeshaker
Nitro Member
In regards to the original post, I don't feel any new classes should be added to competitive events. In fact, I think we need to consolidate many of the ones we have now.
As it is now, except for the alcohol classes, the points meets are just glorified bracket races with the goal of competitors of getting enough credits to run national events. A few run for the year end class championship, but they are in the minority.
So as a track operator, why not eliminate the complainers (I shouldn't have to pay entry fees, etc), a large portion of the pay outs that go to the fewest cars, the most time consuming class and end up with an easier event to run and more money in my pocket?
Using Dean's numbers, the event has an approimate $96,000 back gate income, NHRA fee of $25,000, payouts of $28,000 (no alcohol classes), gives you a total gross profit of $43,000 to run your track for the weekend. This doesn't include any income from spectators or concessions. My advertising would be minimal as the event doesn't have a hook to draw many spectators. I think I could make do with that.
Now, if my track was still using porta potties and didn't have inviting concession stands with good food, I would be ashamed of myself.
As it is now, except for the alcohol classes, the points meets are just glorified bracket races with the goal of competitors of getting enough credits to run national events. A few run for the year end class championship, but they are in the minority.
So as a track operator, why not eliminate the complainers (I shouldn't have to pay entry fees, etc), a large portion of the pay outs that go to the fewest cars, the most time consuming class and end up with an easier event to run and more money in my pocket?
Using Dean's numbers, the event has an approimate $96,000 back gate income, NHRA fee of $25,000, payouts of $28,000 (no alcohol classes), gives you a total gross profit of $43,000 to run your track for the weekend. This doesn't include any income from spectators or concessions. My advertising would be minimal as the event doesn't have a hook to draw many spectators. I think I could make do with that.
Now, if my track was still using porta potties and didn't have inviting concession stands with good food, I would be ashamed of myself.
d'kid
Nitro Member
the suits dont give a rats ass bout alky they only tolerate cause of LUCAS and its is just money 2 Lucas, people like Force, Kalitta and Shu that owe a lot of their fortunes to drag racing and the fans culd help if they wuld,, it wuld b a tax rite off to them but they care wen it benefits them only, the good ole american way
WEN I WIN THE LOTTO , ILL FIX IT
Would you please learn how to spell.
Thank You
Dave
Nitro Member
Joliet does the Burndown at Sundown as part of their divisional race on saturday night. You get the full saturday divisional program, plus jets, wheel standers, nostalgia pro stocks, outlaw super stocks, and other various match races for 20 bucks, kids and parking are free. Plus the top sportsman cars, top dragster, and alcohol classes make their final runs at sundown too. They do a good job filling the place.
Burndown at Sundown! - Route 66 Raceway
Burndown at Sundown! - Route 66 Raceway
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Virgil, the divisionals can be a money maker for sure just based on back gate.
But based on your theory, what becomes of Alky cars. There are 23-24 nationals at 20 tracks, there are at least 10-15 divisional tracks that do not get a national but can easily host TA cars. (I am talking about the number of good tracks) Add in the national tracks that host divisionals and you have close to 30 that can host theses cars. I understand a few tracks only want the back gate and don't care about alky, but there are a number of alky cars that run divisionals and only go to their local national event(s). Many non national tracks do want the alky cars and based on the 18,000 total purse you need 400 spectaors each day extra (for two days) to pay for them, all a track has to do is advertise a bit properly and their purse is paid for. You started in the alky ranks you know the class and the passion the class owners have about it. They are already getting shafted by the NHRA at nationals.
I don't have all the answers or maybe no answers I just know I love the two classes and would hate to see them gone from divisional events.
Just playing devils advocate for the medium and lower budgeted TA teams.
Up here in Division six there are 6-9 national opens that allow all the sportsman classes a divisional has and the track can if they want bring in a feature (a smaller version of the divisionals)
Division 1, 3, 4, and 7 all average well over 300 cars as well making their back gate even bigger.
Dean
But based on your theory, what becomes of Alky cars. There are 23-24 nationals at 20 tracks, there are at least 10-15 divisional tracks that do not get a national but can easily host TA cars. (I am talking about the number of good tracks) Add in the national tracks that host divisionals and you have close to 30 that can host theses cars. I understand a few tracks only want the back gate and don't care about alky, but there are a number of alky cars that run divisionals and only go to their local national event(s). Many non national tracks do want the alky cars and based on the 18,000 total purse you need 400 spectaors each day extra (for two days) to pay for them, all a track has to do is advertise a bit properly and their purse is paid for. You started in the alky ranks you know the class and the passion the class owners have about it. They are already getting shafted by the NHRA at nationals.
I don't have all the answers or maybe no answers I just know I love the two classes and would hate to see them gone from divisional events.
Just playing devils advocate for the medium and lower budgeted TA teams.
Up here in Division six there are 6-9 national opens that allow all the sportsman classes a divisional has and the track can if they want bring in a feature (a smaller version of the divisionals)
Division 1, 3, 4, and 7 all average well over 300 cars as well making their back gate even bigger.
Dean
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Treeshaker
Nitro Member
Dean - I was just trying to show some numbers of how it can work if you budget yourself for the money available. If you added an $18/K purse for the two alky classes you would still have a gross income of $25/K from the back gate, plus concessions and any spectators that might wander in to the event.
I started in bracket 1 with the front engine dragster that was used as Shirley's A/GD in Heart Like a Wheel. I have raced many cars and classes since, working with a lot of racers, tracks, promoters and sponsors along the way and being self employed for 40 years. I learned a long time ago that if you try to do more than your talents (knowledge) and/or equipment will allow, then you have a very good chance of failure.
If you budget an event that will require 5/K spectators to break even, but your facilities only hold 2/K max, it just isn't gonna work. The tracks that advertise and expect the advertising to work, bring in additional acts as their hook. These could be jet cars, monster trucks, Robosaurus, etc. along with the alky cars.
I started in bracket 1 with the front engine dragster that was used as Shirley's A/GD in Heart Like a Wheel. I have raced many cars and classes since, working with a lot of racers, tracks, promoters and sponsors along the way and being self employed for 40 years. I learned a long time ago that if you try to do more than your talents (knowledge) and/or equipment will allow, then you have a very good chance of failure.
If you budget an event that will require 5/K spectators to break even, but your facilities only hold 2/K max, it just isn't gonna work. The tracks that advertise and expect the advertising to work, bring in additional acts as their hook. These could be jet cars, monster trucks, Robosaurus, etc. along with the alky cars.
d'kid
Nitro Member
Just pullin' your leg a little.... you post some great stuff, once I figure out what it is....
d'kid
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