How high are PS engines winding now?

[DaveRenk]

Re: How high are PS engines winging now?

Can't fix it if NHRA won't allow it... lol!

One thing at a time!

But, Electronic Fuel Injection might be the next step; Detroit hasn't built a car with a carburetor on it for a lot of years.... but, NHRA keeps these huge hood scoops and antiquated carburetor systems (which, though antiquated, may match the EFI for output) in spite of a loudly-ticking clock...

I don't think anybody can deny that Pro Stock has stagnated, technologically, through no fault of the racers. Legislated to death, it's a minor miracle that these cars are as blindingly fast as they are.... a tribute to the mechanical geniuses who make them perform way beyond what you'd expect, given their considerable limitations.

I love technology, however, some would make the argument that a stable set of rules has made the very close racing we see today.

 

[haagar]

Re: How high are PS engines winging now?

Why don't we skip over the pneumatic valves and go right to the next technology - electronically actuated valves. I know there have been F1 teams that tried but were never able to get them to work reliably. There is a diagram and description of the electronic/hydraulic system from renault at the link Toby posted ( F1 Engines _ Valve technology ).

 

[willy]

Re: How high are PS engines winging now?

I love technology, however, some would make the argument that a stable set of rules has made the very close racing we see today.

Nice post, David. On the other hand..the new technology would probably limit the best cars to about 3-4 teams..oh sh!t..that's about the way it is now! (as far as winning..not just going rounds). Maybe new tech would open the door to competitiveness.

 

[none]

At a national event how often are the Pro Stock cars pumped for cubic inches
by NHRA?

 

[Nick Name]

Re: How high are PS engines winging now?

OK, we just fixed the valve train limit with the air springs....What is the next limit we need to address? My guess would be the size of the carbs or ???

Piston speed.

 

[NGNBLDR]

At a national event how often are the Pro Stock cars pumped for cubic inches
by NHRA?

I don't know the last time NHRA has ever pumped an engine in PS. What they do now is tear you down. We have been torn down twice this year and I know the KB team for sure has. Anytime you set a national record you will get torn down. I'm sure others have been as well but I would be speculating there. Before the K&N Shoot-Out in Norwalk all eight cars had to show up with a cylinder head off to get checked for engine size. Sometimes it's just a pick one and check them out system. There is no real "schedule" on how often or how many time one might get torn down. They still seal the engines in the car after teck inspection every race. Comp, SS, and Stk still might get pumped and again I would be speculating that information.

Nick

P.S. Just curious; another post commented about fixing piston speed. How do you plan on doing that?

 

[Turtle]

http://www.nitromater.com/nhra/13257-nhra-pro-stock-hp-4.html
Here is the link to the post from Alan about the valve springs when working with Nickens

 

[Bill]

Thanks a lot for posting that link. It's a very interesting read....

One of the advantages of pneumatic springs would be that they wouldn't have a harmonic frequency that would cause the same sort of problems that metal springs experience; their harmonic resonance frequency is so high that it's out of the operating range of this application, or, so I've read.

Nobody has yet offered an opinion on Nick's contention that pneumatic springs will never make an appearance on an NHRA Pro Stocker. They are banned in every class of competition at NHRA races, but, nobody seems to know why.

Interesting, don't you think???


Bill

 

[haagar]

Comp, SS, and Stk still might get pumped and again I would be speculating that information.

I know as recently as two years ago they were still pumping comp cars.

 

[Reese]

Nobody has yet offered an opinion on Nick's contention that pneumatic springs will never make an appearance on an NHRA Pro Stocker. They are banned in every class of competition at NHRA races, but, nobody seems to know why.

Interesting, don't you think???


Bill

Maybe because they were never offered on a American made car. (my opinion).
Also you are right, it is time for fuel injection since the carb is no longer made on a American made car.

 

[Toby]

I would think back when WJ was moving forward with the project, there were quite a few cam/spring manufacturers that were involved with NHRA. Just speculating, there might have been some resistance on that side.

Now I think that its not allowed simply because its something new. There are alot of owners opposed to new development. Their thinking is that it might save money in the long run yet, whats the new trick of the week part that I will need to spend money on if this one is allowed on the playground.

It sucks but there is a wall that's been hit. Development is taking a back seat to economics. Besides the economy itself, motorsports is just pricing itself out of existence. Why do you think NASCAR runs a carb and valve springs? Because they know there will still be 100,000 people show up to watch a race. NASCAR is already expensive as hell, could you imagine EFI, PVRS, active suspension etc?

Yes PVRS would eliminate the cost of springs. However, whats the next piece allowed and its cost? How much will it cost to upgrade the bottom end because the PVRS allows the engine to turn higher? Atleast with springs, there is somewhat of a known cost. This mechanical part has been somewhat of a governor too. This governor has caused alot of sleepless nights for teams and alot of money spent too. However you might consider it a cost saver too because 500 CID engines are only having to live at 10000 rpm. PVRS, hell you could add 1000rpm to it.

Thanks a lot for posting that link. It's a very interesting read....

One of the advantages of pneumatic springs would be that they wouldn't have a harmonic frequency that would cause the same sort of problems that metal springs experience; their harmonic resonance frequency is so high that it's out of the operating range of this application, or, so I've read.

Nobody has yet offered an opinion on Nick's contention that pneumatic springs will never make an appearance on an NHRA Pro Stocker. They are banned in every class of competition at NHRA races, but, nobody seems to know why.

Interesting, don't you think???


Bill

 

[tcrawf]

Why do you think NASCAR runs a carb and valve springs? Because they know there will still be 100,000 people show up to watch a race. NASCAR is already expensive as hell, could you imagine EFI, PVRS, active suspension etc?

While true, NASCAR fans would show up to see a race regardless if they went 220mph at Talladega or 200mph. The point is the loud v8 rumble for a couple of hours and watching they race/bang/and crash.

In other words they are not concerned with pushing the limit of the track record pass or MPH.

Drag racing is entirely different. Could you imagine a 20mph difference in Pro Stock? If all of a sudden the NHRA guys were running 220+ like the IHRA cars do?

In a sport (especially the class) where every horsepower counts, I couldn't see any reason not to do something that would allow the teams more power.

The draw for the fans is the noise AND the acceleration.

 

[Toby]

Have you seen the crowds at an IHRA race? Muchless how many watch an IHRA PS session versus NHRA? Pro Stock fans watch because the racing is decided by thousandths of a second. If they want to watch an eliminator based solely on low et's Top Fuel is available. They can watch one car go fly down the track while ducking parts flying through the air from the other car. Adding available parts to increase performance to PS isn't going to increase many things other than teams choosing to race elsewhere. Hell whats the point? Every team has to spend $30,000 for a newly legal part that gives every team 0.02 of a second and 4 mph?

While true, NASCAR fans would show up to see a race regardless if they went 220mph at Talladega or 200mph. The point is the loud v8 rumble for a couple of hours and watching they race/bang/and crash.

In other words they are not concerned with pushing the limit of the track record pass or MPH.

Drag racing is entirely different. Could you imagine a 20mph difference in Pro Stock? If all of a sudden the NHRA guys were running 220+ like the IHRA cars do?

In a sport (especially the class) where every horsepower counts, I couldn't see any reason not to do something that would allow the teams more power.

The draw for the fans is the noise AND the acceleration.

 

[Bill]

You make a lot of good points, Toby. Thanks for the input.

Even if the engines didn't pick up one horsepower, or turn one more revolution per minute, I'd bet the long-term cost savings with a pneumatic valve spring system would be substantial, because they aren't subject to wearing out like a metal spring does.

You buy it once, and likely, you're done spending money on closing the valves. That money can go to other R & D....

 

[none]

Nothing in PS is "Buy it once and never buy another one." I promoise you that Nick has boxes of parts that were cycled out, because they know that it will break soon, so they are replaced. Everything has a cycle life. Head studs, and nuts and oilpans only last so long. I don't believe that there was a single piece that we didn't replace on a schedule. Nick, do you have parts that last forever?

And I have no idea what the cost would be but keep in mind you don't buy one set and switch it from engine to engine. If Allen Johnson has six engines together he would need six sets minimum! Plus at least two spare sets. Because you certainly wouldn't go to the races without a couple of spares. Then you need sets for the dyno mule etc. I believe that when I was at Nickens we always had at least a dozen sets of heads together at any given time. You might not be changing them as much, but you wouldn't just pick up 16 pieces and be good to go for the season.

I am curious though, Toby do you know what the cost would be to equip 1 engine?

Alan

P.S. This might be the best discussion we have had here this year.

 

[Tim5636sc]

Yeah we might be discussing this till Christmas huh Alan?

 

[haagar]

It looks like Del West Engineering - Pneumatic Valve Spring Systems makes them, but there is no pricing.

 

[Toby]

Man I have looked all over for the link to their website. I called them about a year ago. If I remember right they are on the west coast. They had ran the PVRS on a handful of sprint cars and were working on the manufacturing side to produce the system in high quantity. I think the price was around $7500. They only had one checkvalve and regulator in their design so only seat pressure could be adjusted. It is pretty easy to install another checkvalve and regulator though to adjust max psi too.

I called about the Del West deal a while ago. The 'tech' guy, I use that term loosely, said that it was something that wasn't really for sale. It was just something to show their capabilities.

Nothing in PS is "Buy it once and never buy another one." I promoise you that Nick has boxes of parts that were cycled out, because they know that it will break soon, so they are replaced. Everything has a cycle life. Head studs, and nuts and oilpans only last so long. I don't believe that there was a single piece that we didn't replace on a schedule. Nick, do you have parts that last forever?

And I have no idea what the cost would be but keep in mind you don't buy one set and switch it from engine to engine. If Allen Johnson has six engines together he would need six sets minimum! Plus at least two spare sets. Because you certainly wouldn't go to the races without a couple of spares. Then you need sets for the dyno mule etc. I believe that when I was at Nickens we always had at least a dozen sets of heads together at any given time. You might not be changing them as much, but you wouldn't just pick up 16 pieces and be good to go for the season.

I am curious though, Toby do you know what the cost would be to equip 1 engine?

Alan

P.S. This might be the best discussion we have had here this year.

 

[haagar]

Is this it? ClearTrack Sports Contents

 

[NGNBLDR]

Nick, do you have parts that last forever?

Alan

I really cant think of one piece that lasts forever on these engines. No, wait! (long pause) No that part doesn't last forever.... Hummmm, I surly can think of one part. The intake manifold bolts! No they round off in time from being used so much, so they get replaced. Maybe, just maybe the carb studs. With all joking aside Alan is 100% right. Everything has a cycle life on it. Obviously some sooner than others but nothing last forever. The real cost think that people don't realise is we constantly are R&Ding parts on the dyno. Lets say we have 6 engines together and spare parts on the shelf. Today we try a cam that's better and then proven on the track. Now what? Yep, all new cams for those engines and spares again. One might ask, "Just regrind them". You might get lucky and be able to do that but that doesn't happen very often. Plus here's a speed secret for some. You cant regrind cams over and over again like some do. You want to keep as much base circle in a cam as you can for several reasons. Now we have several cams that are basically retired from service. We can't sell them or give them away. They usually become another item in the parts dungeon. That's just one example. Imagine when you think of all the parts. Intake manifolds, pistons, rods, cranks, etc.etc. it never ends. That's why it costs so much to run Pro Stock. I'm sure Alan remembers seeing intake manifold after intake manifold that just sit there at Nickens shop among several other parts that just take up space.

Nick