Employment at will. (1 Viewer)

[HEMI6point1]

If this thread: http://www.nitromater.com/nhra/19456-pontiac-going-now-what.html is any indication, it seems like most people here are for "employment at will."

Well let's just say that I am against "work at will." It's great for the corporation, because they can fire people for no reason. I work in a call center in a "work at will" state and as I stated in that thread, it's not fun to have that though in the back of your head that your job is always hanging by a thread. To make matters even worse, Jeb Bush got rid of the state labor board, so even if you're fired unjustly you basically have no voice.

These are 3 actual things that people have been fired for:

1. Male co-worker brings in Maxim (Or FHM, I forget) as it's slow, plus some other magazines (cars, etc). Fat female co-worker complains that such a magazine "offends her" and runs to complain. Guy is asked to put it away and not even read it at all, guy refuses and is hauled out by security. Yet, said female worker is allowed to read Cosmopolitan which always show a hot actress/singer busting out of her dress on the cover.

2. One of my co-works receives a complaint from a customer that she was rude to her. Now as many people who've worked customer service knows, seems like when you don't kiss the customer's A$$ is when you're "rude."
Did management even bother reviewing the recording to make sure the customer wasn't full of sh*t? No, they just fired her and said "you're not call center material." Oh, they DID end up reviewing the call afterwords and found the customer to be full of it, but it was too late by then.

3. About 2 years ago, call center management changed the structure of holidays for people who've been working there for over 2 years. Previous to this, these employees got paid holidays off. Now, if you want off on a holiday you need to burn some of your vacation hours or take an unpaid "personal day." Then management has the nerve to tell us "we didn't take your holiday benefits away, we just changed the structure." BS! One employee sent an email to the HR director basically saying, "Please don't play semantics with us. You did take our holiday benefits from us and are treating us like new hires, and we don't appreciate it." Well, again she was given the spiel "you're not call center material" and was fired, even though what she said was basically correct.

All three firings would not have happened if FL was not a work-at-will state.

 

[d'kid]

Sorry Sam
The Guy that signs the check has all the right to Employ Whomever he or she dang well wants to...

You don't like it, there's the door...
No one OWES you anything, even a job.
And no, I don't own a business, I just GREW UP in a time where we weren't taught in school that it's mommy and daddy government to take care of you.

d'kid

 

[Mike]

Sam, there reason you have a job is because of the customer.

 

[HEMI6point1]

Sam, there reason you have a job is because of the customer.

I know that, but especially in a call center, you have one thing on your side: calls are recorded.

Recently, two email surveys came back for me. They were not exactly positive:

1. The first client said "he spoke to me in a tone as if he was superior. That is very poor customer service!"

2. The second one said "The agent asked me to hold so he can find out what level of service he can give me. That is very unprofessional!"

But when my cool boss listened to the calls, it painted a different picture. I was nice, followed procedure and gave them the proper options. My boss disregarded them as a lame attempt to complain in hopes of getting something for free (known in customer service as a "freebie grab") and threw the email away.

 

[Draw 3D]

Just because you live an a work-at-will state doesn't mean the boss can fire anyone without good cause. Most states have labor courts where anyone who thinks they were terminated without good cause can sue the employer.

I live in Arizona where it is a work-at-will state and a few years ago, I was sued by a disgruntled employee I had fired. Once I presented my case which consisted of documented reprimands for various offenses, the presiding judge ruled in my favor.

Employment is not a right, it's an agreement for the exchange of labor for compensation.

 

[Jenn]

Sorry Sam
The Guy that signs the check has all the right to Employ Whomever he or she dang well wants to...

You don't like it, there's the door...
No one OWES you anything, even a job.
And no, I don't own a business, I just GREW UP in a time where we weren't taught in school that it's mommy and daddy government to take care of you.

d'kid

Pretty much Karl,

I'm afraid I'm at somewhat of a disadvantage. I am one of those people who really cannot be fired...because I'm the manager/boss's daughter. At this point, I'd have to fire myself and there's been a couple incidents where I thought I might!

In my younger days, because child labor doesn't apply for family members...I wasn't afraid of being fired, I was afraid of given more work and less pay, or a good beating with a serpintine belt.

Now that I'm older, and I do the actual hiring and firing. That does NOT give me the right to come in late, bully my employees, slack off on dress code, etc etc.

In fact, in hard times, I've gone without pay for weeks so my employees can get their pay first so I'm still afraid of not getting paid for the companies performance, I've worked from 8:00 to 11 pm to get things done. I cannot force an employee to work those hours either, regardless of what I pay them.

As far as your Maxim goes...it's completely discrectionary. I don't think they should be in the workplace, so I will ask my employees not to bring them to work with them. We had free issues sent to us and I let the guys take them home, but I didn't want them in my office, in my lobby, or read at work.

I do occasionally clip out articles for them to read in other automotive magazines that might be of interest to them. I let them read it on company time. Anything they bring in that's not job related...it's for their lunch hour.

If they mouth off or complain, that's their option, but it's my toybox here, and I sign the check to keep them employed. There's a lot to be said on how they address the issue with me. If they mouth off, I'm less likely to bend. If they calmly and without sarcasm address it with me...I'm likely to compromise. But I always try to remain fair.

 

[TJ]

Here in Idaho it is a right to work State...meaning they can let you go w/out ANY specific reason. Now on the same token you qualify for unemployment if you are released w/out any reason..
And we have one of the lowest unemployment % in the nation while maintaining the most millionaires per capita of people.
Employees/employers here are very loyal to each other.
I suppose it depends on what side of the fence you are on in life that matters, and everyone has to do what they have to do to survive.

 

[Jenn]

Here in Idaho it is a right to work State...meaning they can let you go w/out ANY specific reason. Now on the same token you qualify for unemployment if you are released w/out any reason...

Terry, I've never had anybody apply for unemployment after leaving, do you know if they verify the cause with the employer?

 

[TJ]

Jenn,
If you are let go w/out any specific reason than you can collect benefits after they follow up w/ the employer. If you are terminated, and challenged by the employer, you will not collect. But the employer must have a documented history of poor work performance. The State of Idaho is very simple and coming from Calif was a huge change. Very few wrongful termination esq's here.

 

[ctjstr]

Terry, I've never had anybody apply for unemployment after leaving, do you know if they verify the cause with the employer?

the process is similar in most every state I'm aware of. If you leave employment for any reason, you can apply for unemployment. In all cases I'm aware of, they then verify your information with the employer. If you've left voluntarily without reason, chances are you will be denied or at the least, have a several week/month waiting period. If you're laid off for lack of work or some other reason not of your doing, you're eligible virtually everywhere. The tough cases are those where you quit because of a specific reason, e.g. hostile work environment, accompanying spouse on a move, constructive discharge, and those where you get fired. Those are specific to the facts and typically when you apply, the employer gets a chance to respond. If they contest the application, there will be a hearing. If you don't like the result, either side can appeal.

 

[Ted]

But when my cool boss listened to the calls, it painted a different picture. I was nice, followed procedure and gave them the proper options. My boss disregarded them as a lame attempt to complain in hopes of getting something for free (known in customer service as a "freebie grab") and threw the email away.

Sam what are you worried about? From the quote above, it sounds like your boss is happy with your work. Maybe that guy with the magazine got a raw deal, but when the boss says put something away, put it away! Besides, in a "work at will" state, you can always "quit at will" if the boss turns out to be an ass.

 

[Nitrohaulic]

Sam, is there or should there be a law against you firing your employer without what is determined by someone else to be a valid REASON? Do you realize what kind of bind employees can put an employer in when they quit/fire them without notice? THAT'S legal and fair but, the other way around isn't?

"Fair" would be the other way around. An employer being able to take YOU to the labor board for firing them with "no reason." Imagine YOU having to provide "back labor" instead of "back pay" in such an instance. Not only that but, they make employers pay back pay when no work was received. Can you imagine having to provide the "back work" with no pay? Turn things COMPLETELY around!

Unequal employee "rights" is exactly why I've set myself up in the past to legally fit the requirements of having independent contractors instead of employees. All I have to do then is no longer need your services.

If an employer didn't want me, I wouldn't want them to legally have to keep me. They might not want me and NEED me at the same time but, that's another story!

 

[Joker]

Sorry Sam
The Guy that signs the check has all the right to Employ Whomever he or she dang well wants to...

You don't like it, there's the door...
No one OWES you anything, even a job.
And no, I don't own a business, I just GREW UP in a time where we weren't taught in school that it's mommy and daddy government to take care of you.

d'kid

I agree with everything Karl said. I believe as an employeer you should be able to hire and fire as you please.

 

[Jenn]

the process is similar in most every state I'm aware of. If you leave employment for any reason, you can apply for unemployment. In all cases I'm aware of, they then verify your information with the employer. If you've left voluntarily without reason, chances are you will be denied or at the least, have a several week/month waiting period. If you're laid off for lack of work or some other reason not of your doing, you're eligible virtually everywhere. The tough cases are those where you quit because of a specific reason, e.g. hostile work environment, accompanying spouse on a move, constructive discharge, and those where you get fired. Those are specific to the facts and typically when you apply, the employer gets a chance to respond. If they contest the application, there will be a hearing. If you don't like the result, either side can appeal.

Our state does regular employee audits, usually about every 5 years and they go back three to make sure everybody you wrote a payroll check to, was reported to the state, etc. That helps determine your unemployment tax rate as well and makes sure you are doing your duty to report to the state for wage garnishing purposes. It also determines why employees quit, were fired, or laid off for statistical purposes.

My tax rate is the lowest for my employee number and has been for some time.

 

[mick]

here in MN is rite-to-work.
had a guy quite over a requested raise in pay that i could not accommodate.
he threatened unemployment claims (which i don't need), but let him go
knowing he instigated his own departure and felt confident i acted
(as employer) in a professional manner, having documented all previous
wage increases, paid/unpaid leave and other information pertaining to his
employment with me................he never filed.

sam, do the best you can do every day and if you have issues with your
employer, make sure you document these issues because you can bet they
have a file on you. your employer hired you to help him/her make a profit and
as long as you are fullfilling that roll, you will be fine. it is your responsibility
to quite if you feel you are not being compensated to your satisfaction.

 

[Nitrohaulic]

IMO, if the treatment is like that there, one of two things or both are going on. You're either in an industry where you're on the wrong side of supply and demand or, your company is out of line with it's industry.

The woman complaining about something she's doing is one reason why I don't work well under roofs with others. If I were your company, I'd be finding something productive for you folks to be doing during slow time.

 

[vegasnitro]

I can tell you this, employers do not get into a habit of firing people for no reason. First of all, there is the possible cost of unemployment/litigation. Second of all, there is an increased workload on other employees, creating more disgruntled employees. Lastly, there is the process, training and cost of hiring a new employee to fill the vacancy, particularly in a skilled labor environment.

When I worked at the cable company in Vegas, only about 50% of the call center/customer service employees make it past 6 months. It is a high stress-low pay job. Their training program and online tools were so good, you could basically take a trained chimp from the circus and after 1 week, have it answering the phones and doing video/data/phone tech support. The problem is, the calls never stop coming and no one is happy to talk to you. It definitely wears you down.

The company I work for now also has a call center (support for Fluke meters of all types, BlackBerries, 3rd party wireless bridges for the XBox and some hotels internet service) and you can tell who has been there a long time. They all have huge cups of coffee in their cubicles and they all have that far away look in their eyes ... the thousand yard stare if you will.

 

[clwill]

I was the VP of HR of a Fortune 500 headquartered in an at-will work state. As Ron notes above, everybody focuses on the employers "at will" part of the agreement -- mean nasty employer fires employee for no reason at all. Most employers who *can* do that, don't. They want/need good employees, and only fire people when they really need to.

But the the part most forget (as Ron points out) is that the arrangement is two-sided. You can walk in one day and say "hasta luega" and be gone. The employer is hosed -- customers clamoring for service, many weeks lead time to get and train a replacement, and nothing to do about it. In a competitive work environment (which ours was) people did it all the time... The grass was always greener.

The sword cuts both ways.

 

[Nitrohaulic]

I was the VP of HR of a Fortune 500 headquartered in an at-will work state. As Ron notes above, everybody focuses on the employers "at will" part of the agreement -- mean nasty employer fires employee for no reason at all. Most employers who *can* do that, don't. They want/need good employees, and only fire people when they really need to.

But the the part most forget (as Ron points out) is that the arrangement is two-sided. You can walk in one day and say "hasta luega" and be gone. The employer is hosed -- customers clamoring for service, many weeks lead time to get and train a replacement, and nothing to do about it. In a competitive work environment (which ours was) people did it all the time... The grass was always greener.

The sword cuts both ways.

That sword SHOULD cut both ways. It doesn't.