Converters in TA/FC (2 Viewers)

[Bill]

I have read several places that TA/FC racer, Mick Snyder, has, for awhile, been running a torque converter instead of a multi-disk clutch in his car.

I believe he won Pomona II. I was wondering if anyone knows for sure, whether he still has the converter in his car, or whether he'd abandoned the idea and put a clutch in it.

There was, of course, no mention of this, one way or another, in the article about his win in Narional Dragster; they somehow manage to ignore any significant technical information in their event stories. I don't know whether that's because the writers are a. that ingnorant of what makes this sport so fascinating (the technical side of it) , or b. if they think their readers are... (that ignorant.)

At any rate, I was just curious, and thought that maybe someone here on the BB might know whether Mick Snyder still uses a torque converter in his car. Additionally, I wonder if he's the only TA/FC using one.

Remember the B & M "Torquemaster"??? It wasn't a torque converter; just a fluid coupling... which is just a converter without a stator (so, it doesn't multiply torque.) I think B & M just used one right out of one of their "Hydro-sticks"... LOL!

At any rate, if anyone knows, please post it here; I'm really curious!

Thanks in advance...

Bill

 

[Mike]

google: Lencodrive or Lencodrive Automatic Racing Transmission

 

[none]

Bill,

He has the clutch back in the car, and he put it back in so long ago that it's not news anymore. The fact that you don't follow the sport enough to know that the change was made some time back, doesn't make the writers ignorant but it does seem to make you arrogant.

Alan

 

[Nick Name]

American drag racing journalist don't write technical stuff. They are far more interested in "Who will drive for AJ" as are most of their readers.

Jay

 

[Bill]

Bill,

He has the clutch back in the car, and he put it back in so long ago that it's not news anymore. The fact that you don't follow the sport enough to know that the change was made some time back, doesn't make the writers ignorant but it does seem to make you arrogant.

Alan

Thanks, Alan. Apparently, I missed the article in Dragster where they explained the change, and why he did it. This was a unique and an unusual experiment, and deserved some ink, whatever the outcome.

What issue was that in (where he went back to a conventional multi-disk clutch)?

Bill

 

[Jeff]

Better stick to Race Engine Technology magazine Bill. I agree that it would be fun to read . . . seems that this type of writing is unique to golf.

I'm no historian but I thought Will Hanna also drove a converter equipped alky f/c in division 4. It was the A-1 transmission car owned by Harry Clack . . . I think.

 

[clwill]

Google is your friend. Try "lencodrive and snyder". Looks like the last reference to it being in the TA/FC was in 2006.

 

[Nick Name]

Better stick to Race Engine Technology magazine Bill.

Yep!!! That's the only place yopu will find tech stuff.

 

[Bill]

American drag racing journalist don't write technical stuff. They are far more interested in "Who will drive for AJ" as are most of their readers.

Jay

Jay; I am not so sure about that (the "readers" part.)

Drag racing is quite different from NASCAR racing, in that the variety of cars that show up on race day at a national event can, and do vary from 4-cylinder, el-weirdo Comp Eliminator cars, to Pinto station wagons in W/SA, to 150mph Hemi Barracudas in SS/AH, to 300+mph T/F cars... and everything in between.

A NASCAR race has one winner.... an NHRA national event has many... all different.

If you don't know the mechanical vagaries of the different types of cars running, it just looks like pandemonium (with apologies to Bob Sullivan) and organized chaos. The mechanical differences in the cars DEMAND that you learn something about them, if you want to enjoy the races. Otherwise, it just looks like Christmas morning.... with a dizzying array of race cars; some slow, some fast. "What GIVES???" lol!

A NASCAR fan has no such challenge; they can concentrate on which driver will dominate the cookie-cutter field, and there's not much to learn, simply to sit back for a few HOURS, and "enjoy the race."

Conversely, drag racing demands a LOT of its fans in terms of how much they need to know to enjoy the race. A lot of it is "technical." I'm not saying that people have to become mechanical engineers to have fun at a drag race, but the technical aspects of it do require that in order to have a good time, and KNOW why certain cars are faster than others, you need to know something about the cars' equipment.

NHRA has used rulebook specs to dumb-down T/F and Funny Car to the point that they are pretty much "cookie-cutter" cars, yes, but the Sportsman classes retain a huge amount of variety that requires that you, to a certain extent, have to know what you're watching in order to fully enjoy the race.

In that vein, National DRAGSTER has an ethical obligation to supply at least, a modicum of technical information to its readership for the seventy-five bucks they paid for it at the beginning of the year.

Sometimes, it's forthcoming (Evan Smith's tech articles are EXCELLENT, I think), but they drop the ball in other areas. For instance, "ABOUT THE WINNING CAR", a sidebar that supposedly is going to tell you information regarding the vehicle that the winning driver drove, often is just a list of brand names, and "thank-yous," having little or nothing to do with the car, itself. This is of no value to the readership, who might be interested in some technical details of the car, itself (it is called, after all, "ABOUT THE WINNING CAR.")

I have yet to see one that says, for example, "David Rampy's '69 Camaro has a 325hp- 396, and uses a Turbo-hydramatic hooked to a 5.38-geared Chevy 12-bolt, and breathes through a Val Hedworth-prepared 750 cfm Quadrajet 4-bbl. carb. It is a natural D/SA car, ballasted down to E/SA for the superior bite that the better weight-distribution gives him." I surely wouldn't ask that the article get into mechanical specifics about the true compression ratio, camshaft lobe separation angle, piston weight, or other esoterica, but just enumerate SOME idea of what the car really IS, instead of an endless number of tirades about how much a driver appreciates the help his sponsors have given him. That's not anything "about the winning car." Stay on point, ND! LOL!

Is that asking too much? If it is, then they need to change the name of that sidebar to "The winner would like to thank...." and let the guy rant on....
I have NO problem with sponsor recognition... but, it has its place; "About the winning car" ain't it...

I am not being critical of David Rampy; he's no more guilty of this than anyone else... his name was just the first one that popped into my so-called brain, probably because he wins so much!

Bottom line is, I do think that National Dragster has an ethical responsibility to include a modicum of technical information in their articles (and, sometimes they do.) Their first responsibility should be to entertain and educate their readers.

Drag racing fans dig deeper.... they have to. As I said, drag racing is a lot more complicated for the fan, in many respects, than NASCAR racing. National Dragster should reflect that and go the extra mile by reporting more in-depth info about the cars. Wally said it best... "The cars are the stars."

My 2-cents...


Bill

 

[RAPID]

Bill,

Mick and his dad did a bunch of development work on the Lenco-drive while using it in their TAFC. He won his division a number of times, along with at least one National event. I think it is correct he last used it in 2006 or 2007. Then switched to a clutch set up and ran well with it as well.

I "think" that Wilk's boy started off with a Lenco-drive, or at least was going to. Will Hanna from Tx also drove for a car owner with one.

We ran one in the Nitro Madness Altered, and in fact they still have it in there and are quite pleased with it.

Hope this helps somewhat,

Rapid

 

[Bill]

Thanks a lot Randy!!! That's great information, and I really appreciate it!

I used to live in Des Moines, Iowa, and was friends with Vern Moats, but I moved away a long time ago and don't see Vern very often anymore, so I couldn't ask him.

Is it possible to fit a Lencodrive/ converter system into a TAD, or is the length issue going to make that an impossibility? Maybe the A Fuel cars could run just the converter.... or, maybe the way a fuel motor likes to be loaded might make that a bad marriage....

I'm sure Gary Sumek has run it around his brain a few times... lol!

Again, thanks much for the good info! Your website is awesome, BTW!!!

Bill, in Conway, Arkansas

 

[Toejam]

Bill,

Mick and his dad did a bunch of development work on the Lenco-drive while using it in their TAFC. He won his division a number of times, along with at least one National event. I think it is correct he last used it in 2006 or 2007. Then switched to a clutch set up and ran well with it as well.

I "think" that Wilk's boy started off with a Lenco-drive, or at least was going to. Will Hanna from Tx also drove for a car owner with one.

We ran one in the Nitro Madness Altered, and in fact they still have it in there and are quite pleased with it.

Hope this helps somewhat,

Rapid

I talked to Tim Wilkerson about his kid and the Lencodrive back in February, and the fact that the Lencodrive doesn't go 1 to 1 like a clutch does is the reason for the Change! The Lencordrive is very consistant as far as reduced Tire shake, but the ET's just aren't there.

 

[Randy]

American drag racing journalist don't write technical stuff. They are far more interested in "Who will drive for AJ" as are most of their readers.

Jay

Brad Littlefield was the "Drag Racing Journalist " who wrote the article. I can assure you he is more interested in TA/FC than "Who will drive for AJ."

FYI. Brad could assemble a TA/FC from scratch in his sleep (probably has already).

RG

 

[RAPID]

Bill, Vern is a friend and good guy. Glad to know you knew him when you were here as well.

I don't know the real answer to your TAD question, but I assume it would work as a good friend of mine, Tommy Howell, was crewchief on a rear engine dragster that had one. The Converter takes a shallower can than the clutch so length probably would be OK.

I think it would take a TON of testing to make it work with a big fuel load. Mostly for the reason you brought up, the load a Nitro motor likes. If you got it off the line, when the converter locks up, it loads the motor. Now the Nitro motor is loaded and makes more power, causing the converter to unlock again. The load goes away so you put out a cylinder, which starts the cycle all over again.

With all the new technology, it probably could be made to work. However, I think it would be a lot of work and money trying different things to get it to repeat. It is something I have given a lot of thought to as I always found it interesting. At the end of the day, all you did was discover the wheel is still round, and the clutch probably still works better overall.

Thanks for taking the time to bring it up, and sorry for the thread derail.

Rapid

PS, Randy G. called it right about Brad and his interests and talents.

 

[racer3912]

If I remember correctly, Larry and Mick ran a converter in a TAD after their Pro Outlaw days and before funny car. I think they decided they could be more competitive with the combination in a funny car. I heard Mick saying that the reason for the switch to a clutch was so they could try to be competitive with Manzo.

 

[Nunz]

Does anyone remember the Snyder's best ET & MPH with the converter? I think in the 5.60s at 250+ ?

 

[RAPID]

Does anyone remember the Snyder's best ET & MPH with the converter? I think in the 5.60s at 250+ ?

I found this from testing in 2006:

Mick Snyder - 5.716, 246.48

I am sure there is more info out there, and that seems to back up your thoughts as well.

Rapid

 

[Sean D, shondoo]

I'm not positive, but I'm sure they ran well into the .60's with it, Bake. I don't know for sure, but I'm almost positive.

On the flip-side, though, it looks like the switch back to the clutch was worth about a tenth.

Sean D

 

[nick name]

Mick's best time with the converter was 5.59 at 258 mph. And 2008 was the first year Dad and Mick ever put a clutch in any car either one of them raced.

Happy Holidays...

Shanna

 

[Bill]

Thanks, Shanna. I really appreciate the information.

Bill