Classes at Events (2 Viewers)

[holeshot]

well whatever they are using,they still are boring. I have no problem watching stock and super stock as do alot of others. Get rid of the boring classes and they will move to another class lol. Im sure they could find a filler,as far as im concerned id rather watch teh Geico guys than super gas.

and just for fun what class do you run,and that picture of ur truck is nice but i still wouldnt trust pullin my S/G car

 

[Huge]

I have seen some very Wealthy S/C-S/G racers! Look at some of the Rigs next time you walk the pits! So if anyone thinks these are Low buck classes, think again!

Have you ever seen some of the rigs at a jr dragster race? Talk about "WOW".

 

[twostep]

Brackets and Super-class cars, love 'em or hate 'em, are part of the overall sport and I can't see how NHRA could eliminate them even if they wanted to. The alternative is to class and factor all these cars - can you imagine the ensuing nightmare? They'd be 50 years trying to straighten it out and once again, the racers with all the $$$ would come out on top in the end. A $10K car can win a big-money bracket race. You'll spend ten times that much today trying to win C/Altered, for example, which in itself doesn't pay spit. Little wonder Super-class cars are so popular.

Super cars are like Trials motorcycle racing. They are indeed racing machines, both, but precision-style and of little interest to those who aren't actually involved in racing them. Lately I've tried to learn and appreciate the effort to win at electronic-aided and throttle-stop racing but I'd still like to see all of it banned (the aids, not the racing), even though that's not going to happen.

I used to race S/G years ago before there was widespread use of stops and delay boxes. Racing was still very competitive, it was just as hard to win and it was a heck of a lot more interesting from a fan's point of view. They understand 9.90 indexes and what braking at the stripe is for. But they don't understand the stops, for the most part - and people tend to not like what they don't understand.

 

[Bill]

Bill,

QUOTE]

First you say " "Real race cars," ... are cars that are performance-based cars that have to actually outrun somebody at one time or another"

Then you say "most of the '90s cars are constructed ... in order to get an edge at the finish line"

In other words, the .90 cars are built with extra performance to outrun the other guy at the end of the track...
No, no, no, no no.... I never used the words "outrun the guy at the end of the track."

What I said was "get an edge." That is different from "outrunning," and that is NOT splitting hairs.


It became evident at some point that it was advantageous to be going faster than the car in the other lane as the finish line was approached, for reasons having to do with how the finish line is observed. The guy who's ahead has to avert his gaze from the finish line to check the progress of the car that is behind, but catching him. This provides him a a less-that-optimum view of what's going on; a series of snapshots, if you will. Hard to judge. The fast-approaching car, from-the-rear, however, sees both the finish line AND the rear of the "leading" car, sort of like in a movie.... which makes it a lot easier to judge things at the finish line.

THAT is the "edge" of which I spoke. I'm sorrty I didn't explain it more understandably.


You're splitting hairs here. You like some kind of limitations (like "has to vaguely resemble a stock car/motor") but not others. And apparently, if the foot isn't on the floor the whole time, it's not racing.

I didn't write any of the above, so I don't know what you're talking about. None of that is pertinent to this discussion.


However, my original point remains, and that is that non drag racing cars (throttle-stop cars) limit the number of cars that actually DRAG RACE at national events, and that doean't seem logical to me.

But, that's just me. I started watching drag racing when it was ALL heads-up/no breakout racing, and I am having trouble getting over it.

 

[clwill]

THAT is the "edge" of which I spoke. I'm sorrty I didn't explain it more understandably.[/B]

Bill, I race a .90 class. I understand it just fine.

You're still splitting hairs. You are under the mistaken belief that ANY class of drag racing is "all heads up/no breakout". There is no such animal, hasn't been since the 50's. Every class has rules that limit what you can do. There is no "run whatcha brung, hope you brung enough" racing anymore. People who could afford to "brung" a ton ruined it.

 

[Bob]

However, my original point remains, and that is that non drag racing cars (throttle-stop cars) limit the number of cars that actually DRAG RACE at national events, and that doean't seem logical to me.

Bill,

The only NHRA national event that attracts more than 128 Stock or Super Stock entries every year is Indy. That means your argument that the super classes are limiting the number of performance-based class race cars able to enter an event is insignificant in the big picture, but not only for that reason.

Back in the day when Indy had no cap on elimination fields in any class, there were occasions when entire class qualifying and eliminations were contested before other classes were allowed on the property. There was also a time when Stock and Super Stock ladders weren't determined until after class eliminations were completed. You had to win class just to race in eliminations. That was pure performance based sportsman racing. If that were the format today, you'd have much smaller car counts by choice of the racers. The K/SA guy from Arizona isn't going to tow all the way to Indy if he doesn't think he has a legitimate shot at a money round by winning his class just to get to round one Stock eliminations.

 

[HotrodCuda]

All I have to say is although the super classes aren't as interesting to watch as other classes, at least just about anybody with a throttle stop can pick one of the classes and run an NHRA event. So to all of those who think they can afford a $150,000 top sportsman or dragster, go right ahead and spend your money. We little men impacted by this economy will continue to race with what we have and be thankful for what NHRA does for us.

 

[Bill]

Bill,

The K/SA guy from Arizona isn't going to tow all the way to Indy if he doesn't think he has a legitmate shot at a money round by winning his class just to get to round one Stock eliminations.

But, he'll never find out, because the proliferation of .90 cars sent him home early, because his 129th qualifier doesn't allow him to race with NHRA's 128-car limit.
There's no way to spin this so that the performance-based race cars aren't displaced by bracket (.90) cars at Indy.

Maybe that doesn't bother you, but it does me, even if it IS only one race. It's THE race.

 

[Bill]

All I have to say is although the super classes aren't as interesting to watch as other classes, at least just about anybody with a throttle stop can pick one of the classes and run an NHRA event. So to all of those who think they can afford a $150,000 top sportsman or dragster, go right ahead and spend your money. We little men impacted by this economy will continue to race with what we have and be thankful for what NHRA does for us.

But those clsses (Top Sportsman and Top Dragster) aren't the only alternatives to .90s racing. Several people have pointed out that the day of the cheap-to-build .90s car is long gone. A Stock Elminator car may actually br a cheaper alternative, now. I know it didn't used to be that way, but things change...

 

[Bill]

Bill,
Back in the day when Indy had no cap on elimination fields in any class, there were occasions when entire class qualifying and eliminations were contested before other classes were allowed on the property. There was also a time when Stock and Super Stock ladders weren't determined until after class eliminations were completed. You had to win class just to race in eliminations. That was pure performance based sportsman racing. QUOTE]

Bob, I went to my first NHRA national event in 1957....

 

[Bill]

Bill, I race a .90 class. I understand it just fine.

You're still splitting hairs. You are under the mistaken belief that ANY class of drag racing is "all heads up/no breakout". There is no such animal, hasn't been since the 50's. Every class has rules that limit what you can do. There is no "run whatcha brung, hope you brung enough" racing anymore. People who could afford to "brung" a ton ruined it.

First off, please don't confuse "classes" with "Eliminators." People do that all the time, but it just confuses the issues.

Super Gas is an Eliminator.
B Altered is a Class.

"You are under the mistaken belief that ANY class of drag racing is "all heads up/no breakout".

No, I'm not, and I never said I believed that.

I AM under the belief that DRAG RACING is a heads-up, no breakout race between any two cars that leave the line at the same time and have nothing in the rules that will stop the first car to the finish line from winning that race, (except for safety issues.)

The only place you find that in today's NHRA racing is in Stock and Super Stock CLASS ELIMINATIONS, and when two identically-classed Stocker or Super Stockers meet in runs for the Eliminator.

That's the only true drag racing left for the Sportsmen.

You could argue that Pro Mod and the Alcohol classes fit this description, but are they really Sportsman racers, or are they somhow "neither fish nor fowl" a type of car that NHRA chooses to call "Pro Sportsmen"????

It is my contention that is order to be a "drag race" two competitors must start off the same "green" and the first car to the finish line wins, no other conditions apply (breakouts, for example.)

Anything else is a bracket race.

I'd run a class car if I could afford it, but I can't so I run a bracket car. Lots of fun!!!! Compared to drag racing, it's probably the next best thing!!!

Bill

 

[clwill]

So, 99.9% of the racing at a drag race is not drag racing. But you're not splitting hairs.



















Right.

 

[clwill]

Several people have pointed out that the day of the cheap-to-build .90s car is long gone.

I personally know the people who finished #9, #13, and #17 in our division, and there isn't a car with more than $25k in it in the bunch. Less than a new Honda Accord.

 

[cone]

Bill, You make valid points about how drag racing started and what is a real drag race. I would love to be able to race in a "real" drag race but now a days that amounts to the most money wins. I have .90 raced for several years now and love it. I also realize that the fans do not come to see .90 racing or stock/super stock. To say that NHRA should let more stockers in because they "might" race heads up is crazy for a couple reasons. Most of the time they do not race heads up and when they do it is usually not a close race. Do you think fans want to see one stocker beat another by several car lengths? The days of heads up no breakout sportsman racing at NHRA are long gone and to try to cater to that is not a good plan for anyone. If you want to see heads up no breakout racing go watch ADRL, or the big money classes.

 

[Huge]

Do they still run a 7.90 super-E class at the division races? That was a cool class.

 

[Bob]

But, he'll never find out, because the proliferation of .90 cars sent him home early, because his 129th qualifier doesn't allow him to race with NHRA's 128-car limit.
There's no way to spin this so that the performance-based race cars aren't displaced by bracket (.90) cars at Indy.

Maybe that doesn't bother you, but it does me, even if it IS only one race. It's THE race.

Bill,

I think your disdain for the .90 classes is misplaced. You are blaming them for the 128-car first round ladder in Stock and Super Stock, but I don't see how that is their fault.

At Indy this year, assuming there was a 180-car quota/limit in STK, SS, SC and SG (I think it was 180 cars but I could be wrong about that), none of the four classes reached the quota. In fact, Stock and Super Stock both had more entries than either SC or SG.

It looks like your concern is with the fact that Stock and Super Stock are not all-run classes. I can fully understand that, and in fact would agree with you that changing Stock and Super Stock to all-run classes would be desirable. There is certainly enough time to run them all in eliminations at a race as large as The Big Go. After all, it is a 6-day event.

Happy New Year my friend! I hope our paths cross somewhere this year. It has been way too long since I last spent some time with my favorite drag racing fossil.

 

[Reese]

The super classes are not my favorite class but I will sit in the stands and watch them more than I would watch top fuel or funny cars. I have a friend who run in the super classes and I think it is harder to win in than any other sportsman classes. You have to take weather conditions(humidity, wind, etc.) into account on every run(and don't say just buy a e.t. predicter). Then you have to make sure that the car is staged in the same spot every time or your reaction time and e.t. will vary. Also it is one of the least costly classes to run. It is one of the few classes where you can see what I would call "pure driver". Cutting a light, did I stage deep or shallow, racing the finish line, should I take the stripe or not, etc. I always say if you want to learn how to bracket race(yea that's right, cause we all can't have a fuel car ride), watch a good super class, stock, or super stock racer stage a car during time trails, then watch them race the finish line during eliminations.
Also since stock, super stock, and comp are a qualifying classes(as are the pro classes), I think that is why there is a limit on qualifliers. If it was not, no one would worry about making their car faster since they know they would be in the show. I know I will run my car at Indy if I can make it fast enough, if everyone would qualify, why bother.

 

[Bill]

Christopher L Williams;260574]So, 99.9% of the racing at a drag race is not drag racing. But you're not splitting hairs.

Consider this: As history would have it, drag racing began before bracket "tools" existed. The pertinent factors involved in a drag race were simple, and may have come from quarter-horse racing.

You had a starting line. A quarter of a mile away, you had a finish line.

Two competitors statred toward the finish line, simultaneously, and the first one to arrive was the winner.

Period.

What was true then is true today.

If you change the parameters of what goes on on a drag strip from the above, in such a way that the basic premise that the quicker car wins is no longer the result, can you call it the same thing?

You have changed the whole concept of the racing. I don't see how you can continue to call it the same thing, with no reference to the BASIC WAY in which the racing was changed.

It is, in no way, like the type of racing it started out as.... i.e., the first car to the finish line NOW may NOT win (breakout,) and the potentially-faster car may not win (too much time on the active throttle stop).

Such monumental variations from the original premise should go ignored?

Why?

Call it what it is.... "Bracket Racing."

What happened to "truth in advertising?"

There's no shame in Bracket Racing.

It's the only type of racing I can afford, so I do it, enjoy it, and am thankful for it.

The '90s Eliminators are just another form of Bracket Racing.


And, I completely agree with the previous poster who said, "It's harder to win than Stock, Super Stock, or Comp" because of the many pitfalls dialing the car and the closeness of the racing," or something like that.
I think he's right.

Just the protocol is different. Stock, Super Stock and Comp racers constantly work on their cars to make them quicker and faster. There is no incentive to do that in the most popular of Bracket Racing because in the '90s classes, you can only go just so fast, and you break out.

If they suddenly went from 3 to 4 bases, and changed to a golf ball, do you think they'd still call it "baseball?"

Not likely.

Lets call a spade a spade; heads-up, no breakout, is drag racing. Anything else is Bracket Racing.

Just because they do it on a drag strip, doesn't make it drag racing.


My 2-cents...

Happy New Year!!!

Bill
















Right.[/QUOTE]

 

[Bill]

it is one of the least costly classes to run.
Also since stock, super stock, and comp are a qualifying classes(as are the pro classes), I think that is why there is a limit on qualifliers. If it was not, no one would worry about making their car faster since they know they would be in the show. I know I will run my car at Indy if I can make it fast enough, if everyone would qualify, why bother.

It may have been one of the least costly classes to run, initially, but I'd suggest that the cost of racing a "competitive" (170 mph+) Super Comp car is probably on par or even more expensive, now, than a Middle-class Stocker, Look at the expensive, powerful engines in the Super Comp pits, these days. They all want to run big MPH after spending a couple of seconds (or, more) time on the active throttle stop, and that takes big horsepower, which takes BIG money.... Just my opinion....

An all-run qualifier list may have the effect you suggest, but I think the Class Eliminations are more important to these racers than you give it credit for being. I am on another forum which has mainly Stock and S/S racers posting on it, and I can tell from their writing that they value a Class win a LOT! They won't get that without working on their cars.

Just my 2-cents... and, running out of money!!!!

Bill

 

[Bill]

Bill,

I think your disdain for the .90 classes is misplaced. You are blaming them for the 128-car first round ladder in Stock and Super Stock, but I don't see how that is their fault.

At Indy this year, assuming there was a 180-car quota/limit in STK, SS, SC and SG (I think it was 180 cars but I could be wrong about that), none of the four classes reached the quota. In fact, Stock and Super Stock both had more entries than either SC or SG.

It looks like your concern is with the fact that Stock and Super Stock are not all-run classes. I can fully understand that, and in fact would agree with you that changing Stock and Super Stock to all-run classes would be desirable. There is certainly enough time to run them all in eliminations at a race as large as The Big Go. After all, it is a 6-day event.

Happy New Year my friend! I hope our paths cross somewhere this year. It has been way too long since I last spent some time with my favorite drag racing fossil.

I can't argue with anything you've said, Bob, but, try and convince the Druids in their ivory tower that Stock and S/S need to change to an all-run format. In the meantime, the guy with the 129th quailifier from Phoenix still goes home early, rergardless of the '90s cars' qualifying time element.

While you're at it, remind Larry (please) that at least one more turbo Pro Mod car is being constructed (maybe more,) and an identifying mark in the Fast News reports would sure be useful! I lost his email addy, or I'd do it, myself.

I hope our parths cross in 2011, too! I'd love to buy you dinner!!!


Bill