Classes at Events (1 Viewer)

[clwill]

When I look at my annual racing spend, almost every other number pales in comparison to fuel spend (and I'm not talking VP fuel).

Absolutely. If you take out the upgrades and additions we do because we want to, the largest number (by about 2x) for us is the diesel it takes to get there and back.

 

[Bill]

Define "Real Race Cars" and exactly how are they being displaced?

Okay; a "real race car" is a car that at some point in its competitive experience, has to actually OUTRUN some other car, or at least, be in jeopardy of having to OUTRUN another car (irrespective of dial-ins, and breakouts.)

More succinctly, by "outrun," I mean to get there first in a heads-up, no breakout drag race.

Anything else is just bracket racing, which has its own can of worms, but isn't "performance-based" in terms of competing on a specific output basis with the other cars in its class.

Drag racing was born and bred to be a "performance-based" type of racing, and whether bracket racing was its downfall or its savior when it came along, "performance-based racing" was not a part of its makeup.


Thatwas its whole appeal, and it worked.

But, real race cars have to actually outrun somebody, or perform under that possibility. Bracket cars just beat the clock.

How do these "bracket" cars displace "real race cars"??? Look around at a National Event... Take Indy for example. NHRA only allows 128 Stock Eliminator cars to qualify; the rest go home.... don't get to race at all.


I don't know how many Super Gas and Super Comp cars are allowed to race at Indy, but it's a LOT.... their qualifying alone, can take HOURS.

NHRA has to make time for that.... and limit the number of REAL race cars in order to have time for these active throttle stop cars to drive down the drag strip, trying to hit a number. They'll never, EVER have to outrun anybody in a real drag race. It's all choreographed by the index. Breakout, and you lose...

Meanwhile, the guy from Phoenix AZ who was the 129th (the first non-qualifier") in Stock Eliminator, a racer who might have won his class in K/SA is told, " Go home; you failed to quaialify." His race weekend is over...

If not for the mulititudinous .90 "Bracket cars," he might have been allowed to race. NHRA USED to have an "all run" policy for these cars. Now, there's simply not enough time.

THAT is how they displace REAL race cars.

Hope this gives you an idea of how the bracket cars affect competition for the real race cars.

 

[Bill]

Nancy, I think that is just the way they show that there really is no quota. 500 to 600 cars for the whole race is about right.

As much as everyone likes to complain about the money in drag racing, I really don't think there are many people getting rich in the sport. .

At $700,000.00 a year, Tom Compton ain't doin' bad....

 

[NYNitro86]

I always classify Breakout racing as Precision Racing, where it's not just about getting to the stripe first alone that makes the difference, but getting there first no quicker than a certain time, regardless if there's electronics or no electronics, it's more for the thinking driver in "should i let em go, should I take the stripe" decision making.

 

[Gregg Pickens]

Okay; a "real race car" is a car that at some point in its competitive experience, has to actually OUTRUN some other car, or at least, be in jeopardy of having to OUTRUN another car (irrespective of dial-ins, and breakouts.)

More succinctly, by "outrun," I mean to get there first in a heads-up, no breakout drag race.

Anything else is just bracket racing, which has its own can of worms, but isn't "performance-based" in terms of competing on a specific output basis with the other cars in its class.

Drag racing was born and bred to be a "performance-based" type of racing, and whether bracket racing was its downfall or its savior when it came along, "performance-based racing" was not a part of its makeup.


Thatwas its whole appeal, and it worked.

But, real race cars have to actually outrun somebody, or perform under that possibility. Bracket cars just beat the clock.

How do these "bracket" cars displace "real race cars"??? Look around at a National Event... Take Indy for example. NHRA only allows 128 Stock Eliminator cars to qualify; the rest go home.... don't get to race at all.


I don't know how many Super Gas and Super Comp cars are allowed to race at Indy, but it's a LOT.... their qualifying alone, can take HOURS.

NHRA has to make time for that.... and limit the number of REAL race cars in order to have time for these active throttle stop cars to drive down the drag strip, trying to hit a number. They'll never, EVER have to outrun anybody in a real drag race. It's all choreographed by the index. Breakout, and you lose...

Meanwhile, the guy from Phoenix AZ who was the 129th (the first non-qualifier") in Stock Eliminator, a racer who might have won his class in K/SA is told, " Go home; you failed to quaialify." His race weekend is over...

If not for the mulititudinous .90 "Bracket cars," he might have been allowed to race. NHRA USED to have an "all run" policy for these cars. Now, there's simply not enough time.

THAT is how they displace REAL race cars.

Hope this gives you an idea of how the bracket cars affect competition for the real race cars.

Then by your own description Stock and Super Stock cars are not real race cars either, unless they are racing someone in the same class, ie K/SA vs K/SA. Otherwise they use a dial under (ie dial in) and can break out. On top of that they all use some form of electronic aid. Stockers are allowed to use a two step switch on their brake pedal and Super Stocks can use two steps, transbrakes and automatic shifters.

I challenge you to find a single car at an NHRA event that is not performance limited in some way. Restrictions on fuel, blowers, engine size are all performance limiters. There has not been a true unlimited class in drag racing in a very long time.

Lets get to the root of the problem. You don't like the super classes and for what ever your personal reasons are you want them gone. The problem with that is they are just as important to the people that have choosen to participate in those classes as Stock, Super Stock, Comp Eliminator or any other class. But what I don't hear is the Super Class folks calling for the elimination of any other class so that they can have bigger fields in the Super Class of their choice.

I really doubt a field of 500 Stockers is going to bring in more spectators in Indy than 2 fields of Super Classes. You might be in the stands watching but it will just be you and the friends and families of those that are racing. I have been to Indy as a Sportsman racer and had to be there on Tuesday (3 full days before a single Pro sees the track). All of the people there are true drag racers and committed to the sport and the spirit of competition. I don't begrudge any of them their class or opportunity to be part of the sport I love. So the next time you feel the need to throw stones at a "bracket racer" take a look around a step out of the glass house you are standing in.

 

[Huge]

You are probably right, in that most sportsman races happen without the pros (all the divisional events, the national open events, a bazillion local races, etc.). And they run just fine - not a lot of spectators, but they do OK.

But a national event with just the 3.5 pro classes would be like watching paint dry. You'd have maybe 70 cars at the track, and hours of idle time between rounds. Even add in 30 or so for the Alcohol classes and you're still running an event with about 1/4th the cars and passes you have at a typical national event.

Despite all the haters for Super classes, having a few hundred other cars there for people to see, to hear, to wander amongst, adds to the spectacle of a national. Without them, it'd be a pretty small happening. Hard to justify $80/ticket for that...

I started my racing career in division seven, and you are right, there are very few spectators at the sportsman events. There were very few spectators back then, and there are very few now with out the pros. [NITRO=SPECTATORS]. You are not going to get big time investors like Bruton Smith, and other track owners to keep investing their money in these race tracks, if there is no tv coverage or spectators, and it is pretty tough to race without a racetrack.

 

[clwill]

I started my racing career in division seven, and you are right, there are very few spectators at the sportsman events. There were very few spectators back then, and there are very few now with out the pros. [NITRO=SPECTATORS]. You are not going to get big time investors like Bruton Smith, and other track owners to keep investing their money in these race tracks, if there is no tv coverage or spectators, and it is pretty tough to race without a racetrack.

But you're also not going to get people like Bruton building massive facilities for only one or two national events a year. Even if they clear a boatload on those two dates, it's a long way from making them profitable. That's why places like LVMS have races almost all year. LVMS has a dozen weekends on the calendar already for next year, and also is rented out for people like Frank Hawley several other weeks a year. Those "non-nitro" events help make those grand facilities profitable.

 

[Draw 3D]

Then by your own description Stock and Super Stock cars are not real race cars either, unless they are racing someone in the same class, ie K/SA vs K/SA.

Comp is also mostly not heads-up, different classes have different indexes.

 

[clwill]

Bill, you have an interesting fantasy about what "real racing" is. Unfortunately, what you end up with is checkbook racing: he who has the fattest checkbook wins. It stops being about skill, practice, passion, desire, ability, and just devolves into a race about money.

Every sport has to deal with this problem. Most pro sports have limits on salaries, or have revenue sharing deals, or somehow address the problem of the "haves" vs. "have nots". And yet, despite massive transfers the "haves" such as the Yankees (with a huge market) still manage to dominate by out-spending their competition. Even such "pure athletic" sports like those in the Olympics end up having to have restrictions against professional athletes or performance enhancements.

The result is that no sport, nor any level of drag racing, is "pure" to its origins, as you seem to want. Somehow they are all limited to make the competition possible, and affordable.

We all, especially the NHRA, crow all the time about how drag racing has more participants than any other motorsport. What you so vehemently hate is one of the key reasons why.

 

[Gutte]

This is a subject that know one will agree on but consider the revenue for NHRA. NHRA is the largest sanctioning in the world. As most know there is 7 divisions. As a local sportsman racer you race at your local track(s) and DRAG race(brackets,heads up indexes,etc) if its a NHRA sanctioned track most places require you to have an NHRA permanate number($) and then you have to become a member($). Alot of racers/members want to run a national event( I ran 1 nat'l,99 fiebird raceway in S/ST What a blast!) Thats big time for a sportsman guy. In order for me to run that event I needed 2 divisional credits($$$). That means I had to travel to 2 other tracks and enter($) plus pay for my families entries($). That was 99 in Super street, I attended a firebird divisional and a divisional open in Salt Lake(I lived in Tucson 890 miles one way). Now imagine now, besides both Pomona's, both Las Vegas Races and especially INDY, you need at least 4 credits to be considered. The big 5 as mentioned correct me if I'm wrong you need 6 credits. Folks thats car numbers,memberships,divisional entries,national entries plus its a family sport and now you include crew passes(which is full boat). Now lets look at Firebirds sportsman category(the lowest car count on tour) and estimate 350 sportsman.......Do the math$$$$$$$$$......NHRA is not going to jeopardize sportsman racing, now I admit NHRA is raising prices,changes schedule, and does some odd decisions to upset the sportsman but as long as there is a Wally to win you will have sportsman. Forgot about all the aftermarket parts sportsman racers buy that are official sponsers of NHRA or just pays contigency. There's no garuntee of fan count but they know how many sportsman are showing up at every event, you can send the check but if you dont meet the requirements you aint racing. I'm gonna side with the sportsman on this one.....

 

[Bill]

Then by your own description Stock and Super Stock cars are not real race cars either, unless they are racing someone in the same class, ie K/SA vs K/SA. Otherwise they use a dial under (ie dial in) and can break out. On top of that they all use some form of electronic aid. Stockers are allowed to use a two step switch on their brake pedal and Super Stocks can use two steps, transbrakes and automatic shifters.

What you say is true, up to a point. The difference in a Stock Eliminator car and a Super Gas car is this: At any race, and at any time, that Stocker may HAVE a heads-up, no breakout race with a similarly-classed car and HAVE TO OUTRUN SOMEBODY. That will NEVER happen to the Super-category car.... ever. The Stocker must be built to be as fast as it can be; the Super category car has no incentive to go quick... ever.Ditto for class eliminations.

"I challenge you to find a single car at an NHRA event that is not performance limited in some way. Restrictions on fuel, blowers, engine size are all performance limiters. There has not been a true unlimited class in drag racing in a very long time."

I challenge YOU to find any place the entirity of what I wrote that I addressed the concept of limiting performance by mechanical means.

I didn't. That is not the problem.

Lets get to the root of the problem. You don't like the super classes and for what ever your personal reasons are you want them gone. The problem with that is they are just as important to the people that have choosen to participate in those classes as Stock, Super Stock, Comp Eliminator or any other class. But what I don't hear is the Super Class folks calling for the elimination of any other class so that they can have bigger fields in the Super Class of their choice.

No, the root of the problem has nothing to do with what I like or dislike. The root of the problem is that NHRA has forgotten its (own) roots (no pun intended) and allowed a non-performance type of racing to infiltrate an activity that started out totally different. It presents it like it's a real drag race, but it is NOTHING like a real drag race, and no matter how many big block Chevy/Powerglide cars are fitted with throttle stops, it is the anthessis of drag racing. In actual drag racing, you win by outrunning the car in the other lane by getting to the finish line first. In this kind of racing, you win by seeing how close you can run to a number, without going too quick. You never have to outrun anybody. Totally different deal.

"I really doubt a field of 500 Stockers is going to bring in more spectators in Indy than 2 fields of Super Classes. You might be in the stands watching but it will just be you and the friends and families of those that are racing. I have been to Indy as a Sportsman racer and had to be there on Tuesday (3 full days before a single Pro sees the track)."

I don't disagree with that, but that has nothing to do with our discussion.

"All of the people there are true drag racers and committed to the sport and the spirit of competition. I don't begrudge any of them their class or opportunity to be part of the sport I love."

I have no idea why you'd bring up the dedication of an unnamed group of fans in a discussion like this. It's totally impertinent to the subject we're talking about.

"So the next time you feel the need to throw stones at a "bracket racer" take a look around a step out of the glass house you are standing in."

My race car is a 1972 Valiant, with a 360 Magum engine that I treated to a Vortech centrifugal supercharger. I AM a bracket racer. My car fits NO class in an NHRA rule book, so I have a lot of fun running it in the brackets.

That fact doesn't blind me to what goes on at an NHRA national event.
The "class" cars in Stock and Super Stock cars that are PERFORMANCE BASED cars, ARE being displaced by the Super category cars, and that's a fact. When NHRA adopts an "all run" (in Stock) policy at high-participation races like the INDY race, that will no longer be true. But, it's true right now.

What's the national record in Super Gas???
Get my point?

 

[Toejam]

I have seen some very Wealthy S/C-S/G racers! Look at some of the Rigs next time you walk the pits! So if anyone thinks these are Low buck classes, think again!

 

[Dave]

You are probably right, in that most sportsman races happen without the pros (all the divisional events, the national open events, a bazillion local races, etc.). And they run just fine - not a lot of spectators, but they do OK.

But a national event with just the 3.5 pro classes would be like watching paint dry. You'd have maybe 70 cars at the track, and hours of idle time between rounds. Even add in 30 or so for the Alcohol classes and you're still running an event with about 1/4th the cars and passes you have at a typical national event.

Despite all the haters for Super classes, having a few hundred other cars there for people to see, to hear, to wander amongst, adds to the spectacle of a national. Without them, it'd be a pretty small happening. Hard to justify $80/ticket for that...

You would have more than 3.5 pro classes, TF, FC, PS, PSM, PM, they would just run at every event. Throw in the alcohol classes and you now have seven classes and 130+ race vehicles. There would be virtually no down time at all between qualifying rounds or the first three rounds of eliminations.

 

[clwill]

I have seen some very Wealthy S/C-S/G racers! Look at some of the Rigs next time you walk the pits! So if anyone thinks these are Low buck classes, think again!

And they regularly get put on the trailer by people running low-buck entries. They run nice rigs because they can, and get a small advantage from high HP. But unlike in, say, TF (where cubic $$ == win lights), no amount of big dollars can turn a huge $$ car into a winner in those classes.

 

[Bill]

Bill, you have an interesting fantasy about what "real racing" is. Unfortunately, what you end up with is checkbook racing: he who has the fattest checkbook wins. It stops being about skill, practice, passion, desire, ability, and just devolves into a race about money.

Every sport has to deal with this problem. Most pro sports have limits on salaries, or have revenue sharing deals, or somehow address the problem of the "haves" vs. "have nots". And yet, despite massive transfers the "haves" such as the Yankees (with a huge market) still manage to dominate by out-spending their competition. Even such "pure athletic" sports like those in the Olympics end up having to have restrictions against professional athletes or performance enhancements.

The result is that no sport, nor any level of drag racing, is "pure" to its origins, as you seem to want. Somehow they are all limited to make the competition possible, and affordable.

We all, especially the NHRA, crow all the time about how drag racing has more participants than any other motorsport. What you so vehemently hate is one of the key reasons why.

Well, it's not a fantasy, but I should have stated it differently. First off, I don't think I said "real racing." What I may have said was "real race cars." At least, that's what I meant. There's a difference. "Real race cars," to me at least, are cars that are performance-based cars that have to actually outrun somebody at one time or another, so must be built with the ultimate capability of having maximum accelleration in mind. Super category cars have no such requirement because they will never be involved in a real drag race, with no limit on their performance; "something-ninety" is as fast as they can legally go. Insofar as the money spent on these cars, if you closely examine the way most of the '90s cars are constructed, nowadays, you'll find that in order to get an edge at the finish line, they have the capability of running speeds that are significantly faster than would be required to simply run their (e.t.) number, and that is expensive. LOTS (maybe even most) of these cars can run a full second (and, more) under their '90s index. If fact, I'd bet that the extra horsepower, and the attendant equipment necessary to make these outrageous speeds possible, probably pushes the cost of the typical .90s car to a level ABOVE that of a class-legal Stocker. That is based on nothing scientific... just my opinion. Your mileage may vary..

I don't hate Super class cars. But, I hate that NHRA lets them displace performance-based race cars that MIGHT get a chance to do some heads-up, no breakout REAL drag racing during their Eliminations...... something the spectators will never see in .90s racing.

Unless I'm mistaken, the Stockers pay NHRA just as much as the Super category cars do, for the privilege of racing, so money to the national organization is not a pertinent factor.

Just my 2-cents...

Bill

 

[Huge]

And they regularly get put on the trailer by people running low-buck entries. They run nice rigs because they can, and get a small advantage from high HP. But unlike in, say, TF (where cubic $$ == win lights), no amount of big dollars can turn a huge $$ car into a winner in those classes.

I have never read a more true statement, and that is why I like the sportsman classes so much. You can transport your race car to the track on an open trailer, and as long as you have a fuel jug - water jug - generator - battery charger - air compressor - weather station - some carb jets - a few tools - a cooler and a barbeque, you can win and have a lot of fun doing it, and if you don't have all this, you can probably borrow it from the team next to you. Sportsman racing is such a family atmosphere and I love that. Even though I have been working on fuel teams off and on for the past twelve years, I still try to go to the sportsman pits and hang out with my friends every chance I get.

 

[NYNitro86]

I have seen some very Wealthy S/C-S/G racers! Look at some of the Rigs next time you walk the pits! So if anyone thinks these are Low buck classes, think again!

Vinny Barone, PC Richard and Son, Speedco and Arnie Martel, they got fleets.

 

[clwill]

Bill,

First you say " "Real race cars," ... are cars that are performance-based cars that have to actually outrun somebody at one time or another"

Then you say "most of the '90s cars are constructed ... in order to get an edge at the finish line"

In other words, the .90 cars are built with extra performance to outrun the other guy at the end of the track...

You're splitting hairs here. You like some kind of limitations (like "has to vaguely resemble a stock car/motor") but not others. And apparently, if the foot isn't on the floor the whole time, it's not racing.

 

[clwill]

Vinny Barone, PC Richard and Son, Speedco and Arnie Martel, they got fleets.

We have several people who show up in semi-trailers (or the mega-motorhome/stacker combo) for races around here. Two of our most memorable win lights from last year were putting those guys on the trailer. One of them, a total pompous dirt-bag, tried to steal our lane after the coin flip, then took forever to stage (fiddling with this and that), only to go .050 red. Sweet

 

[Huge]

But you're also not going to get people like Bruton building massive facilities for only one or two national events a year. Even if they clear a boatload on those two dates, it's a long way from making them profitable. That's why places like LVMS have races almost all year. LVMS has a dozen weekends on the calendar already for next year, and also is rented out for people like Frank Hawley several other weeks a year. Those "non-nitro" events help make those grand facilities profitable.

I agree, that's why in post 29 I said that I feel you need sportsman and pros. I was just at LVMS about three weeks ago with a team that rented the track for three days to license a driver in a fuel car, and when I arrived at the track on Sunday afternoon with the transporter, there was a jr dragster race just finishing. There are a lot of events that go on at some of the major tracks in between the national events. Every dollar helps.