ADRL to Allow EFI for XPS in 2012 (1 Viewer)

[Buns]

Wow.. A big move. This will be very interesting to watch progress. Wonder if this will give the NHRA a kick-in-the-butt to allow Pro Stock the same luxury.

ADRL To Become First In Drag Racing To Allow EFI In Pro Stock | ADRL.us

 

[clwill]

Man, I hope so. Even NASCAR is all EFI next year.

We ran a FAST EFI system this past year, and are switching to the Holley box (the same basic one NASCAR is using) this year. I love the information EFI provides, I love the tunability, I love being able to make changes in seconds.

And it can be very consistent. Without giving away any secrets, let's just say if you hit the tuneup right, the thing xeroxes time slips.

 

[vegasnitro]

Of course NHRA will move to EFI for Pro Stock in a couple of years ... they are letting other sanctions do the R + D for them. Not a bad move on their part, it let's guys get a few more years out of their parts, and it allows the aftermarket to catch up to EFI so when NHRA switches, costs should be less than they would be if NHRA were out in front of the technology.

 

[clwill]

There have been people running EFI in drag racing for well over a decade. There are many electronics vendors, Big Stuff, FAST, Holley, AEM, Motec, ... EFI manifolds are well known technology, check out Hilborn, Kinsler, Hogan, Edelbrock, Holley, and others. Some of the biggest and baddest cars out there run EFI. There's almost no "R&D" left to do. If NHRA allowed it tomorrow, the top teams in PS would be running it and killing with it within weeks.

 

[Reese]

There have been people running EFI in drag racing for well over a decade. There are many electronics vendors, Big Stuff, FAST, Holley, AEM, Motec, ... EFI manifolds are well known technology, check out Hilborn, Kinsler, Hogan, Edelbrock, Holley, and others. Some of the biggest and baddest cars out there run EFI. There's almost no "R&D" left to do. If NHRA allowed it tomorrow, the top teams in PS would be running it and killing with it within weeks.

Yea, like stock, superstock, comp, super classes, pro mod, etc.
Christopher, I thought FAST was a good system, Holley's better?

 

[none]

Is it possible to use efi on the nitro cars?

 

[clwill]

Christopher, I thought FAST was a good system, Holley's better?

Turns out that controlling an engine is a pretty simple problem. Look at a couple of inputs (RPM, MAP, maybe air and coolant temp), find that entry in a table, and fire the injectors. You can add some features to it, but the basic control of it is not rocket science. So a lot of people have developed systems to do it, as I said, there's FAST, Big Stuff, AEM, Motec, Holley, and of course Ford, GM, Toyota, etc. Some of these are tiny little companies, and few them have done anything in the way of R&D work in a long time. And it shows.

While the FAST XFi is a fine engine controller, it falls short on some pretty basic areas. For example, it has a ridiculously small log capability, something like 64kb. Your wrist watch probably has more, and you can buy a 2gb flash drive (3000 times bigger) at the Target checkout for $5. For me, it fails to record a full pass 75% of the time. And you have to decide what to log in advance. If you forget to log something, it's lost forever. Worst, it only logs once. Get hot-lapped in late rounds and don't have time to download the log, and it's too bad. The Holley box has 2gb of memory, logs everything by default, and can hold several years of logs before it fills up. For me, this alone is worth the change.

The software to control the XFi box was designed to run on DOS and it shows. It's clumsy, finicky, and often hard to figure out. Sometimes when you change one thing, it also changes other things without you realizing it. It uses a serial connection that has the tendency to lose the connection at the worst possible moments. Holley's is a Windows native program that uses USB and seems to work quite reliably. It certainly is a more modern and easier to figure out application.

Finally, FAST seems to be hanging on. The guy who was my tech support contact isn't there anymore. The most recent "major" software upgrade didn't correct any of the above issues. Holley, on the other hand, just got the NASCAR contract, and their tech support folks seem great. While I can't speak to the financial solvency of any auto aftermarket company, I guess I'd rather invest my time, energy, and money in a bigger company that seems to be investing itself.

Chris

 

[Reese]

Thanks Chris, didn't realize FAST had fallen that far behind. Was thinking of building a EFI stocker about 5 years ago and was gonna go with a FAST system.
Thanks again for the info.

 

[vegasnitro]

Thanks for the info on EFI Chris ... especially your own experiences, that is just good info. I personally had no idea that EFI systems were that far along for drag racing, which leaves me to question why Pro Stock has not changed over yet? After all, there hasn't been a carbuerator on a stock car in 30 years.

 

[clwill]

Is it possible to use efi on the nitro cars?

I don't see why not. The injected nitro cars in TAD run mechanical fuel injection, there's no reason they couldn't use electronic. And people run EFI with blowers. It's all just what NHRA will allow, IMHO.

 

[clwill]

... which leaves me to question why Pro Stock has not changed over yet? After all, there hasn't been a carbuerator on a stock car in 30 years.

I'm in the middle of a thread on this very topic on another forum. Mostly, I think it's fear of being able to police it. I think NHRA feels it doesn't have the tech folks who understand it well enough to be able to control it.

NASCAR is solving this by using a spec box (by Holley, btw). As the team rolls up on a given weekend, they get a serial numbered box that has certified software and no capability for wheel speed sensors. The team loads their setup into it (about 30 seconds of work) and off they go. NASCAR retains ownership of and inspection rights to the box, they can swap it out any time the choose, and can quickly hook up a USB cable and check the software to insure it hasn't been monkeyed with.

There's no reason NHRA couldn't do the same thing. And since winning teams have to stop at the scale, just put a guy there with a tester, hook up the cable, check the software (again about a 30sec test), and let 'em go.

In my mind, the only thing stopping NHRA is calcification.

 

[Toejam]

I remember back about 10 years ago when The EFI debate started, some experienced engine builders were saying the there were a lot of ways to Cheat with EFI? Can somebody in the know fill us in on this?

 

[clwill]

Hm... No problem with an ECU but not sure there are EFI injectors that could handle what is needed on a competitive blown nitro engine.

That used to be the case, but with the development of direct injection and the really robust injectors they have there, I'm guessing some of the technology is around. Look at diesel injectors and the pressures they put up with.

I'm quite sure it hasn't been tested much, and I'm not sure there's any incentive to experiment with it, but I doubt it's a technological problem.

 

[clwill]

I remember back about 10 years ago when The EFI debate started, some experienced engine builders were saying the there were a lot of ways to Cheat with EFI? Can somebody in the know fill us in on this?

One core issue is traction control. If you have wheel speed sensors (and to some degree you can do it with just RPM sensing) you can sense an "out of the ordinary" increase in speed, decide that it's slippage and do something about it. Maybe back off timing (the most common solution) or pull out fuel, or... And at the speeds an ECU runs, it can be done in an almost imperceptible way, and you can insure the car is always running just on the edge of the tire's ability to stay hooked up.

This is an issue in NASCAR as well (for example on restarts), and they way they have chosen to control it is to not have those sensors and not have that stuff in the software. Again, with certified software, and lots of checks to be sure people aren't screwing with the software, you can stop people from doing it.

 

[clwill]

I'll be 55 in two weeks (!), have built engines and worked on cars for a long time. Despite that I'd much rather see EFI than carbs in Pro Stock. I'm lazy and today I have a much better understanding of that technology than carburation.

I turned 55 last March, and couldn't agree more. We run EFI mostly because in 2010 I spent the whole damn year fighting a carb problem and all the solutions seemed like so much voodoo. With EFI I can monitor and fix problems in seconds, and I don't have to pray to the "intermediate bleeder" gods to get it right

 

[PiPPi]

I'm quite sure it hasn't been tested much, and I'm not sure there's any incentive to experiment with it, but I doubt it's a technological problem.

I'm with you on that.

Now, electronically controlled closed loop cutch tuning would be a hoot I've spent some time on that subject picking the brain of a friend who's an expert in stepper- and servo motor technology.

A whole 'nother thread, but give it just 30 seconds of thought and you'll start smiling.

Regards
PiPPi

 

[Toejam]

I turned 55 last March, and couldn't agree more. We run EFI mostly because in 2010 I spent the whole damn year fighting a carb problem and all the solutions seemed like so much voodoo. With EFI I can monitor and fix problems in seconds, and I don't have to pray to the "intermediate bleeder" gods to get it right

As long as Carbs make more Horsepower than EFI, the transition will be slow! We have an engine builder here in town who has a Dyno. He has Dyno'd motors with EFI and Carbs, and there is a Horsepower disparity for sure!

 

[clwill]

As long as Carbs make more Horsepower than EFI, the transition will be slow! We have an engine builder here in town who has a Dyno. He has Dyno'd motors with EFI and Carbs, and there is a Horsepower disparity for sure!

I am on the dyno all the time (just two weeks ago with our combo), and this is an old wives' tale. Mostly spread by people with not enough EFI experience, or with some axe to grind (they sell or tune carbs).

We gained almost 100hp going from a traditional intake with carb to a IR system with EFI. The manifold makes more difference than the fuel delivery system. With EFI you can put preceisely the correct amount of fuel in at each RPM, for each load, at every different barometric pressure, at every different air and engine temperature, and so on. With a carb you get maybe three different ranges, and that's it. And with an EFI system, you can tune cylinder to cylinder for optimal fuel delivery and timing.

In any apples-to-apples comparison, there is NFW that a carb is better.

 

[clwill]

Now, electronically controlled closed loop cutch tuning would be a hoot I've spent some time on that subject picking the brain of a friend who's an expert in stepper- and servo motor technology.

Anything has to be better than those Rube Goldberg-like air timer systems they have today. How ridiculous...

 

[vegasnitro]

NASCAR is solving this by using a spec box (by Holley, btw). As the team rolls up on a given weekend, they get a serial numbered box that has certified software and no capability for wheel speed sensors. The team loads their setup into it (about 30 seconds of work) and off they go. NASCAR retains ownership of and inspection rights to the box, they can swap it out any time the choose, and can quickly hook up a USB cable and check the software to insure it hasn't been monkeyed with.

Formula 1 also uses control ECUs in a manner very similar to the NASCAR method you described above. F1's ECUs are all built by McLaren and the software is from Microsoft.