Way to go Team H-D !! 3rd and 4th today !! (1 Viewer)

[Jon Asher]

Wow, Donnie! And you too, Samuel.

Well, anyway, this isn’t and wasn’t about whining. It’s about a level playing field.

First of all, even with my extremely limited knowledge of motorcycles I can tell the difference between a 4-valve overhead valve engine’s potential and that of a 2-valve pushrod package.

From everything I’ve been told there was no way the 2-valve engines were ever going to perform at the level of the 4-valve.

Second, am I the only one who questions the fact that Harley-Davidson appears to have mandated that Vance & Hines NOT supply any other competitors with those parts?

If that’s not the case, where are the hundreds of other Harley racers we know are out there? They darn sure aren’t running in the AHDRA, ‘cause that deal appears all but dead.

And does anyone else here believe that one team having exclusive use of parts that are proven to be race-winners is acceptable and fair?

I understand the difference between whining and legitimate complaints and this issue falls on the side of the latter, not the former. Whining is “I can’t win ’cause that other guy has more money to spend on his bike, so he has a better engine.” That’s whining, this is complaining: “I’ve spent more money this year than in the last five, and I’ve consulted motorcycle racing engine builders in five states, and each and every one of them’s told me that no matter how much I spend, I won’t be able to make enough power to beat So-and-So because the engine package I have simply isn’t capable of producing that much.”

No one cares how much an OEM manufacturer invests in a class. In fact, the more the better. BUT, with that investment comes a sort-of “obligation” to spread the wealth of knowledge and parts around so that more than one team can bring the manufacturer’s name and logo into the winners circle.

Good one, John Goss!

Jon Asher

 

[Rat]

What race were you watching yesterday? Eddie didn't beat himself, he was beat by another rider, big difference than throwing a race away with a red light. Given the HD track record this year I would say he is really good under pressure.

What race were you watching yesterday?

(W) Karen Stoffer (GEICO Suzuki) 0.009 6.998 191.21
(L) Eddie Krawiec (Screamin' Eagle/Vance & Hine 0.066 6.980 191.81

That is called a holeshot a.k.a. beating himself

 

[Paul]

What race were you watching yesterday?

(W) Karen Stoffer (GEICO Suzuki) 0.009 6.998 191.21
(L) Eddie Krawiec (Screamin' Eagle/Vance & Hine 0.066 6.980 191.81

That is called a holeshot a.k.a. beating himself

Sorry, but IMO he was taken out by a better rider yesterday. Giving a race away is going red where you have no chance to win. If something happened to Karen he would have won which would not have happened if he went red.

 

[yoda]

So... I roll up to the local H-D dealer and buy the biggest motor they have available- If I have to have a bike attached to it, so be it.

I take it back to my shop, I disassemble it, mic everything, order a few hundred pounds of aluminum block and throw those paramaters into my CNC machine. I allow some tolerance allowed by the rulebook for performance mods (beefier rod, etc.).

Slap it back together, put the external H-D cosmetic parts on that make it look like a H-D product, and roll off to national event tech.

Do I get bounced, and if I do- how come?

 

[Rat]

If something happened to Karen he would have won which would not have happened if he went red.

Or was almost 600's late. In my book going red or losing on a holeshot is the same thing as beating yourself because there's only one outcome to both scenarios: You were not on your game as much as you should have been.

 

[Nick Name]

So... I roll up to the local H-D dealer and buy the biggest motor they have available- If I have to have a bike attached to it, so be it.

I take it back to my shop, I disassemble it, mic everything, order a few hundred pounds of aluminum block and throw those paramaters into my CNC machine. I allow some tolerance allowed by the rulebook for performance mods (beefier rod, etc.).

Slap it back together, put the external H-D cosmetic parts on that make it look like a H-D product, and roll off to national event tech.

Do I get bounced, and if I do- how come?

Because you didn't, get it approved by Glendora first. also, copying a Harley motor and you would just have another slug.

s
So forget buying the Harley part. Just make your own V twin and call it a Harley

 

[Sandman]

...order a few hundred pounds of aluminum block and throw those paramaters into my CNC machine...

As a CNC programmer/machinist, this is one of the things that irks me. Most people think a CNC is kinda like a microwave oven in that you just plop some material on the table, press the "Cycle Start" button and watch the magic. Machining something like an engine case or a cylinder head is a huge deal. It requires hours and hours and hours of programming time, followed by hours of fixturing, then more hours of actual spindle time. Not to mention the huge expense of the material (price billet aluminum sometime) and the fact that your first design probably won't work like you want, so you get to make more evolutions of the engine or part. It's an enormous expense that nearly nobody can afford just to win a low-paying drag race championship. Normally engine builders go through all that expense and effort with the plan to recoup the investment by selling their product, just as Vance&Hines did when they raced Suzukis. You could buy the same stuff Terry Vance rode. But those days are evidently gone, because now they sell nothing like what they race.

 

[yoda]

Because you didn't, get it approved by Glendora first.

But it's not MY motor, Jim- it's a H-D... I used their engine as the template, and even used their parts... I assume the H-D product has already gotten approval.

UNLESS... The motors used on those H-D bikes isn't actually founded in Milwaukee technology...

As a CNC programmer/machinist, this is one of the things that irks me. Most people think a CNC is kinda like a microwave oven in that you just plop some material on the table, press the "Cycle Start" button and watch the magic. Machining something like an engine case or a cylinder head is a huge deal. It requires hours and hours and hours of programming time, followed by hours of fixturing, then more hours of actual spindle time. Not to mention the huge expense of the material (price billet aluminum sometime) and the fact that your first design probably won't work like you want, so you get to make more evolutions of the engine or part. It's an enormous expense that nearly nobody can afford just to win a low-paying drag race championship. Normally engine builders go through all that expense and effort with the plan to recoup the investment by selling their product, just as Vance&Hines did when they raced Suzukis. You could buy the same stuff Terry Vance rode. But those days are evidently gone, because now they sell nothing like what they race.

Sorry, Jim... You were missing my sarcasm. Believe me- I know its not as simple as slapping a hunk of material in a machine and pushing "GO". I've just taken delivery (after almost two years) of a car that I designed, and engineered (and re-engineered) with the fabricator (who, with his assistant, are both qualified engineers), who also designed and fabricated in THEIR CNC machine a ton of billet, one-off parts for this car that took a lot more time, material and brain cells to create a part that SHOULD work. I saw the parts as raw stock and digital code come out to become the piece we needed to continue construction of our new dragster. I was also a draftsman and production manager for a large screw machine plant back east, and I know that the amount of time that it takes to create something from an idea is nowhere near as simple as it seems when you see the final product.

I know that the VH guys have put a ton of effort into the creation of a championship winning team- the same as one or two of the teams running PST did. And the results are paying off substancially. The issue that I see is that, between the liberal adaptation of the rules to build a competitive bike for the class, NHRA went too far on the pendulum swing to get the Harleys up to speed- 4 valves and more c.i. was having cake and eating it too. Couple that with a team that absolutely knows how to win, and what it takes to do so, as well as a little too much apathy by the other teams to keep their blades sharp, and you get domination by one team that also is allowed to be exclusively the only kids on the block with that ball filled with unobtanium being pitched only to them when they come up to bat. Of coures they will knock it out of the park every time- it was DESIGNED that way.

 

[StockersRock]

The motors used on those H-D bikes isn't actually founded in Milwaukee technology...

Coincidentally, the real VROD motor was co-designed by Porsche. Many dyed in the wool Harley fanatics don't even consider the VROD a true Harley.

 

[TooTall999]

So... I roll up to the local H-D dealer and buy the biggest motor they have available- If I have to have a bike attached to it, so be it.

I take it back to my shop, I disassemble it, mic everything, order a few hundred pounds of aluminum block and throw those paramaters into my CNC machine. I allow some tolerance allowed by the rulebook for performance mods (beefier rod, etc.).

Slap it back together, put the external H-D cosmetic parts on that make it look like a H-D product, and roll off to national event tech.

Do I get bounced, and if I do- how come?

You also have to have the "approved" PSM body parts; for which there is something like a 10 year backorder. Ask George Bryce about all the stonewalls he's run up against trying to get a V-Rod.

 

[ROCKY]

How much longer do they get to run Buells?

 

[Rajunz]

I gotta admit, I didn't know the engine rules before today's broadcast. But I was truly shocked to see V-twins are allowed to run 160 cubes compared to 107 for the Suzukis. How is that right? I mean I love Fords, but I'd be ashamed if Larry Morgan had to get a 30% bigger motor to run with the rest. I think PSM ought to follow the car formula: X= engine size, period. Y= weight with rider, period. The rest is run whatcha brung, but you can't try to start handicapping this brand or that brand with weight week after week if they aren't the same to start with. Anyone here remember the old small-block handicapping fiasco that preceded the 500ci/2350 lbs P/S days? It was a total joke, much like today's PSM.

Because a V Twin engine design is not a very efficient engine compared to an inline four. Same reason that a little 600 crotch rocket will walk away from a V Twin with twice the cubic inches on the street.

Terry, I believe the rule in Pro Stock is 5 years for an obsolete car. The problem here though is there is nothing to replace the Buells with, all the more reason to get the Viper bikes approved.

 

[john]

But I was truly shocked to see V-twins are allowed to run 160 cubes compared to 107 for the Suzukis. How is that right?

The inline 4 has 2 power pulses per revolution, the V twin has 1. A large efficiency advantage.

 

[Sandman]

Not to be a jerk about the whole HD vs the rest of the world thing, but if you can't play by the same rules, don't play. If I had a baseball team that was shorter than everyone else, do you think that MLB should let me have three extra players on the field? Sorry that H-D can't compete, but the fact it's a V-Twin has nothing to do with it. H-D couldn't compete in the AMA series, either, even with Ford-designed engines tuned by Roush engineers. But the NHRA is quite content to give them whatever they want (until next year) just to put H-D fans in the seats and that's not right.