Troxel & Scelzi DQ from Norwalk

[ex-nsp]

This is a puzzling deal!

Yrs truly can't believe that this shot bag addition hasn't been common practice for a long time with EVERYBODY. Can it be that JUST this weekend Melanie's and Gary's crew chiefs, or OWNERS, came up with this idea to add illegal weight.

Glad they're not experimenting with mass dampening- which, as I read the rules, should be legal.

I understand the hardball tactics that NASCAR takes with their -so far the weak economy not yet affected-rules enforcements, but NHRA is suffering from marginal fields. They seem to be on downhill slide to thoroughly p###ing off the racers (the SHOW, by the way) and the FANS- those people in the seats is who we're talkin' who maybe fans of both racers, as am I, who WON'T SHOW UP ON SUNDAY cause their hero/heroine insn't racing!!!!!

Let's hope its not PAYBACK, but rather temporary INSANITY that will be corrected SOON- especially after they count empty seats!

 

[The Counterfeiter]

Sounds like everybody has to do it because of the fluctuation of the scales.

Kelly - add another problem to NHRA's long list. NASCAR has a very sophisticated fixture that checks car weight that travels with their inspection team. As far as I know, NHRA relies on some kind of scale at each track with no standards or calibration (unless it's in the Policy Manual).
The only way all of this is going to be fixed is by hitting NHRA in the cashflow.
Pro teams need to band together with a list of demands and cause paying fans to express their frustration when the teams refuse to race. JMHO

 

[TooTall999]

The scale accuracy isn't the issue,it clearly states in the rulebook "Any competitor found to have loose ballast,either in qualifying or eliminations,will be disqualified from the event" No gray area there.The scale accuracy is another issue that PRO should address.

 

["Dr. Dirt"]

OOPS! . . . Scelzi and Mel both admit there was loose ballast in the cars and go on to talk about inconsistent scales. Doesn't matter - they broke a rule and there is no doubt about what the Rule Book says.
If the loose ballast was in the cars during the runs, it was a very bad safety decision. If the ballast mysteriously appeared after the runs, you can draw your own conclusions.

Great post Jim. It now poses the obvious questions:
Just who has been doing it?
How have they been doing it?
How often have they been doing it?
Is the NHRA just discovering it?
Has it been going on for some time and just now being enforced?

 

[Randy]

The scales do vary by plus or minus 20 pounds depending on which way the wind blows...literally. Our cars are designed to have a certain amount of downforce. Even when a slight breeze or afternoon winds blow it can have a devastating effect on car weight. Especially full bodied cars.

For example, sometimes a steady strong wind comes up in the afternoon at Infineon. It usually blows from the finish line toward the starting line. The wind gets under funny car bodies from the back and gives them lift. At Las Vegas this year they stood plywood up at the back side of the scales and had all the cars back in to the scales.

I believe it was Andy Manna who won a round and came up light at a division event at Infineon several years ago. At the scales, which at the time was located on the return road near the time slip booth, the wind was blowing strong from behind as you towed toward the starting line area. They went through the scales and came up light. They asked the folks at the scales if they could turn the car around and face the wind, but their request was denied. The result was a disqualification.

Scales can vary due to intermittant rain, humidity (or lack of it), temperature, or just plain loose tolerances along with wind direction as I suggested. Racers are racers and don't want to have any runs tossed. Lets just say that the silence from the rest of the teams was deafening.

RG

 

[FABMAN]

Now that they found Mel's and Gary's loose ballast NHRA will be checking under everyone's seat OOPS!. They broke the rules and have admitted doing so, the penalty seems a little harsh, but Graham L., it seems any time that man can get on TV and lay down a penalty and probably a fine, he seems to be enjoying himself with that s$$t a$$ grin on his face. I just hope the racers,owners and sponsors start standing up to him.

 

[Gordon]

I seem to recall Larry Morgan's "Can't Fix Stupid" quote had something to do with scales a few years ago. I also believe he brought up the same exact issues Randy brought up in his post with respect to wind having a dramatic effect on weight readings.

In light of my signature quote about working the solution rather than working the problem, it would seem to me (from an outsiders perspective, of course) that enclosing the scales, either permanently or temporarily, would be a relatively simple fix, as would calibrating them at the beginning of each National or Divisional event.

Edit: The more I think about it, I actually believe Morgan's quote had something to do with timing issues rather than scales. Regardless, my feelings about the relative ease with which this can be fixed remain unchanged.

 

[Rexfiles]

I seem to recall Larry Morgan's "Can't Fix Stupid" quote had something to do with scales a few years ago. I also believe he brought up the same exact issues Randy brought up in his post with respect to wind having a dramatic effect on weight readings.

In light of my signature quote about working the solution rather than working the problem, it would seem to me (from an outsiders perspective, of course) that enclosing the scales, either permanently or temporarily, would be a relatively simple fix, as would calibrating them at the beginning of each National or Divisional event.

Completely agree Gordon.

Sounds like with all the 21st century technology abounding at the racer level, the NHRA and tracks (not all) are barely out of the early 50's airstrip days in many regards.

SHEEEEESH!!!!

REX

 

[Bobby]

I believe it was Andy Manna who won a round and came up light at a division event at Infineon several years ago. At the scales, which at the time was located on the return road near the time slip booth, the wind was blowing strong from behind as you towed toward the starting line area. They went through the scales and came up light. They asked the folks at the scales if they could turn the car around and face the wind, but their request was denied. The result was a disqualification.



RG

. The people at the scales wouldn't do that? I 'd have had a hard time controlling myself if I was that racer.

That being said these two teams cheated and I 'm glad NHRA doesn't play favorites for the sake of the 'show' a la nascar. Saying the scales aren't accurate is no excuse and I dont' know how they could even say that .

So the innacurate scales are an excuse to run light? how light? are the other teams doing the same thing? to what degree? how much ballast? If they were 30 pounds over like Mel said why put the ballast in the car? Are the scales that far off? If so why didn't everyone have a problem?

They deserved to be DQd. I feel bad for the drivers having to go out and 'defend' their teams actions.

And especially bad for every fan of Mels and Garys.


If the scales are a problem fix it.

And am I the only one that thinks Light seems to enjoy talking about bad things when they happen? does he have a little grin on his face or is it just me?

 

[clock guy]

Scales are always calibarated and certified by the local scale company at each venue the week prior to the national event. Water does play havoc with the the electroincs of the scales if the drains under the scales can't keep up with the volume of water.
Wind plays a much bigger factor as a variable than anything else.
In refrance to how NASCR weighs cars, remember they only have 43 cars to weigh during pre race inspection and one or two to weigh at the end of a race. At the National events each winner of each pair and every car that betters it spot in qualifing must weigh at the end of the run. Plus the PS cars and bikes usualy head to the scales prior to each run also. And all the cars from comp up are towed to the scales, at NASCAR there pushed. So having a shelter is a pretty tough thing to do, now saying that Topeka has a beautiful tech building that the scales are in, thanks to SCCA. But to have one at most tracks would be very difficult.

 

[Tony]

I don't think it's any coincidence that this added-weight infraction took place in the FC class. The driver's compartment is obviously shielded from view by the body, motor, fire shield, and tin work. Once the driver exits the car through the roof hatch, the crew has ample opportunity to place loose weight in the seat area before a crew member takes the seat and the car is towed back to the pits and scales. I believe the NHRA views this violation as a safety infraction rather than a weight infraction, and rightly so.

 

[nick name]

The scales do vary by plus or minus 20 pounds depending on which way the wind blows...literally. Our cars are designed to have a certain amount of downforce. Even when a slight breeze or afternoon winds blow it can have a devastating effect on car weight. Especially full bodied cars.

For example, sometimes a steady strong wind comes up in the afternoon at Infineon. It usually blows from the finish line toward the starting line. The wind gets under funny car bodies from the back and gives them lift. At Las Vegas this year they stood plywood up at the back side of the scales and had all the cars back in to the scales.

I believe it was Andy Manna who won a round and came up light at a division event at Infineon several years ago. At the scales, which at the time was located on the return road near the time slip booth, the wind was blowing strong from behind as you towed toward the starting line area. They went through the scales and came up light. They asked the folks at the scales if they could turn the car around and face the wind, but their request was denied. The result was a disqualification.

Scales can vary due to intermittant rain, humidity (or lack of it), temperature, or just plain loose tolerances along with wind direction as I suggested. Racers are racers and don't want to have any runs tossed. Lets just say that the silence from the rest of the teams was deafening.

RG

I totally agree with Randy, though the range in Pro Stock cars used to be a little bit less. After we got rid of the last wood platformed scale (wood absorbs moisture and thus gets heavier) I was never able to determine why some scales were so inconsistent.

With the exception of one team, we always considered it was better to run a bit heavy and let the driver try and make up for the extra weight on the starting line. I can remember being as much as 15 pounds heavy at some races. Yes, it might have cost a round but you're going to lose it anyhow if you come up light.

What happened with the one team that was an exception? The crew chief (who was quite large) always managed to stand on the far side of the car from where the scale operator was. One of his hooves managed to slip onto the scale surface from time to time. The process was never questioned when I was around since the team was one of the "upstanding" "team players" with the association.

As for the wind, the absolute worst had to be at Topeka which is in the middle of the flat, flat, heartland. The scale was situated on the only rise on the property. The plywood trick was used there for many years though a lot of times the gusts made it almost impossible to keep a grip on the sheet.

As for the disqualifications, I also wonder how widespread the 5 pound bag of shot has been at certain tracks. Considering the experience of the crew chiefs involved, it's hard to believe that they alone thought it was something that needed to be done.

I have to think that they're feeling just like the driver in a pack of vehicles running 75 mph on the interstate who wins the lottery and gets pulled over.

"Yes, but you're the one I caught!" You can assign the statement to the state trooper or NHRA tech official as needed.

 

[sammi]

NHRA, forever, took their birthday away from any sportsman racer who steps 1 mm out of bounds-purposely or accidentally. It is actually nice to see that happen in the pro ranks. It is even nicer to see that the threshold of penalty has been lowered from from the previous standard (nitrous bottle blowing up in the pro stock pits.)

NASCAR gets a ton of good publicity every time they sit down a bad boy crew chief or take away points from a racer using "street" language. NHRA, always being slow on the uptake, may finally be using this well proven strategy to keep themselves in the papers and TV.

Mark

 

[possum]

People i know that run Stock Eliminator cars often have to add weight from one day to the next at the same track. They weigh the cars before runs and on the way back. The scales can easily be 40lbs off on a 3500lb car.

 

[shoe]

I am dissapointed that this happaned and I take full responsibility because the Scelzi team is my team. I was not aware that the team was putting 5 pounds of loose weight in the car after the run. There is no reason to do this since the car is 15 pounds over the minimum (sp). I accept that this is wrong.

 

[sparky]

Don, thanks for that. You are a "stand up" guy. Thread killing statement!

 

[Nitrohaulic]

I remember reading about one round track team years ago in which each crewmember would have a Pepsi in their hands before pushing a car onto scales. They'd all innocently reach in and put their Pepsis on the right side floorboard. Turns out all the cans were full of lead!

That's right up there with them saying how big of a fuel line they could have (cuz some used radiator hoses) so, they'd loop the line around and around the car since the rules didn't say how LONG the line could be. It's a wonder they didn't have one gallon carb float bowls or fuel filters.

How much lead could you get into a top fuel helmet? Picturing a guy struggling to get it up on the cage.

 

[jim]

When I was the grunt for my father-in-law in his scale business, we worked on doctor scales, asphalt batch plant scales, and everything in between. It was amazing at how they could vary day to day. Even electronic load cell scales have levers and agate bearings that can get dirty. However, plus or minus 20-40 pounds repeatability sounds more like a farm scale than a race car scale.

 

[nick name]

IHow much lead could you get into a top fuel helmet? Picturing a guy struggling to get it up on the cage.

A few years back, the standard for weighing AFCs was to have the body up since it was just left that way as they got the driver out at the end of the track.

Whether they had been tipped off or just doing the required sneaky thinking, one scale crew decided to do things a bit differently

When they weighed a body tree (support), it rang up over 100 pounds since the tubing was full of lead shot.

Back then they didn't check the fire jacket that got tossed into the car, either.

In the sportsman rank, a second owner of one of the original Hemi Barracudas told me a story about when he was getting the car ready for its new paint. As he was removing the first taillight, it got away from him and broke a chunk out of his concrete garage floor. Concave areas are a good place to put lead.

 

[Mike]

Just for the record, the weight of a fuel car can vary quite a bit from run to run if the staging process has any delays. Nitromethane at 90% weighs in just under 10 pounds per gallon. The car at idle is burning on the average of 4 gallons per minute. Thats 10 pounds every 15 seconds coming off the car. If a car is close to minimum weight and the get hung out for and extra 15-30 seconds durning the burnout and staging...well you get the picture. Yes the wing, body, wind and moisture have an effect on the scales, but you just have to deal with the situation when it arises. I'm not sure how and when they calibrate, but there should be some sort of full scale error that is allowed. If the scale is good to 10K pounds a .5% (50#) error would be pretty fair.

As much as I like Scelzi and many others, there is no valid excuse for what happened. Yeah it cost them a race, but I bet it won't happen again anytime soon. Maybe he ought to put a roll of quarters in his pocket instead. Or is he just happy to see you???