Toyota Prostock??? (2 Viewers)

[nick name]

The Camry is a "Bourbon Burner" ... built in Georgetown, Kentucky, USA from mostly domestically sourced parts!!!

What do you consider the Mopar Pro Stockers Jackee? "Maple Syrup Burners" since the Stratus is built in Canada? Or "Kraut Burners" since Mopar is owned by der Deutchslanders?

I say let 'em all in. There are no domestic cars anymore, there are no foreign cars either. There are basically only 5 or 6 car companies in the world, they build and badge 'em as they please and as it suits their whims. If Toyota, BMW or Ferrari want to build a Pro Stocker who the hell should tell them "no"?

I see you've bought into the marketing and PR spin. It's at full gale force these days with Toyota entering NASCAR.

FACT: Half the units Toyota sold in the US last year were made in Japan.

FACT: Profits go to Japan and don't stay in the US.

FACT: When the Japanese build a plant here, they also bring their suppliers. I've seen numerous small factories spring up doing weatherstrip, wiring, upholstery, and all the ancillary parts that used to be a big part of the US auto industry. They all have non-locational names (Triad Industries, etc.) but the owners are from Japan. Then we hear about how American the parts are.

FACT: The Japanese have a strong sense of national unity and still have a bunker mentality of advancing Island Japan above all others. That's not necessarily a bad thing but it does promote predatory business.

Check the OEM tires on Asian vehicles. 95% of them will be Bridgestone (and now Firestone) which is a Japanese company. Goodyear has never been able to make much of a dent in supply and Firestone didn't either until Bridgestone bought it.

FACT: Most of the raw materials used in the plants are also imported from outside the United States.

FACT: The Japanese government subsidizes their auto industry by keeping the yen artificially low and by sponsoring R&D ventures that would not be legal here in the US due to anti-trust laws.

None of the above apply to US makers. And as for the Mercedes angle, the last time I looked Chrysler stock is still sold on the NYSE. Further, the Germans have never had restrictive trade or predatory actions.

The Japanese lobbyists (funding went to 5 million last year from about 300K in 2002) love to talk about non-continental car production. It's a red herring, as cars have been produced in Canada for decades and none of the above issues apply to them anyhow.

Misssouri once was the #2 vehicle production state in the US behind Michigan. It's not any longer and I know a whole bunch of people who have lost jobs not just at the assembly plants but at the supplier facilities also.

In the realm of opinion, I'm only slightly amused at Toyota's effort to wrap itself in the US flag. Just for kicks, take a close look and almost any Asian vehicle commercial on TV and note that the colors used are predominately red, white (or silver, which looks white on TV), and blue. You think that's just a coincidence?

I'd hate to see Toyota buy DRCE and Mopar parts and then produce their "Toyota" parts according to the engineering product of US makers. Of course, that's what they've just done in NASCAR and NHRA let the genie out of the bottle a long time ago when Pro Stock parts stopped being production-based.

One thing I can say for sure, though. I can go to any GM. Ford, or Mopar dealer and buy performance parts very similar to what's being raced. I doubt seriously the same is true (or ever will be) for Toyota. Even if they did, what would I put the engine in, a 68 Corolla?

The grab for money is destroying our heritage.

 

[nick name]

And after all that, I left the most important part out.

As you can probably tell, I'm with Jackee

 

[Professor Dave]

FACT: The Japanese government subsidizes their auto industry by keeping the yen artificially low and by sponsoring R&D ventures that would not be legal here in the US due to anti-trust laws.

Two comments-first you are confusing the Chinese yuan and the Japanese yen. The value of the yen is determined in the same free foreign exchange markets that determine the value of the dollar, euro, pound, etc. The Chinese government fixes the value of the Yuan relative to the dollar and enforces that with controls on flows of capital.

Second, basic R and D should be subsidized by governments. We do it all the time in terms of the National Science Foundation and the National Institutes of Health among others. Our drug companies receive huge benefits as a result of research funded by the Federal government. And while Al Gore didn't invent the internet, the U.S. Department of Defense did. And the U.S. government should be spending more to help our auto companies develop powerplants that don't run on fossil fuels-I want to save gasoline for racing not for basic transportation. What the hell, a gallon of C-25 costs me $15-16 gallon. The last thing I want is the basic resource used up by some commuter stuck in traffic. And yes, my daily driver is a Honda (a car which the Japanese government did NOT want built)-it's got a stick, is high quality, and gets me between 35 and 40 mpg. If GM or Ford or Chrysler built a car of the same quality and gas mileage I would have bought one of those. (Ford had the focus, GM the cavalier, and Chrysler the Neon-give me a break. If chevy had come out with the Cobalt a year earlier, I'd be driving one of those.)

 

[NitroMustang65]

I see you've bought into the marketing and PR spin. It's at full gale force these days with Toyota entering NASCAR.

*good info snipped*

The grab for money is destroying our heritage.

Dan, than you very much for posting that. I keep out of posts like this, since I have a very unpopular opinion when it comes to this issue, and it's nice to hear from a person who thinks like I do.

Edit - I'll add this to the mix as well IndyStar.com message boards - View Single Post - Is Toyota BAD for NASCAR??

 

[HEMI6point1]

A new 6 series BMW Pro mod would be awesome!

Cool yes, but unfortunately it would be breaking down more than actually driving. Just like the ones on the street.

I'm still waiting for a '70 Chevelle SS pro mod and '71 full-bumper Camaro pro mode. Those would be cool.

 

[vegasnitro]

Dan Bennett;

Good post. I don't agree with very much you had to say, but I do appreciate the time you took to type that out and craft a counterpoint.

It is true that more than half of the "units" Toyota moved last year were built in Japan. Guess what, about half the "units" that GM/Ford/Chrysler moved last year were built outside the USA too, so we really shouldn't hold that against just Toyota.

It is not entirely true that all of Toyota's pofits go back to Japan. Toyota deemed long ago that Toyota USA must be self sufficient, so the "profts" that Toyota USA makes must cover racing, advertising, suppliers, dealer support, payroll, benefits and all other costs associated with being an auto manufacturer. Then whatever is left goes back to Japan, this is only fair because if Toyota USA came up short or didn't make a profit, Toyota Japan will be coming out of the pocket to cover the expenses. Business 101 in action right here.

We shouldn't hold Toyota's profitability against them just because US automakers do not make money, in fact they LOSE prodigous amounts of money. So much so they screw over their retirees by cutting benefits, or force active workers out of a job and future benefits using ambiguous terms like "early retirement packages".

Lastly, who says there would be no trickle down effect to the sportsmen? I am sure that if Toyota took the time and expense to develop a big block V8, they would try to recoup some of that by making some of the parts available via their TRD arm. We'll never know until we let them try. It would be up to NHRA to police this, just like they do with GM and Chrysler. Hold Toyota accountable, verify parts numbers and make those parts available to sportsmen/marine/offroad applications. Not very hard to do and as long as the request is made upfront to Toyota so they know what they are getting into.

I am of the opinion more is better, whether it be more cars or more manufacturer involvement. I am not trying to "put a PR spin" on Toyota involvement, but if they come in, fund 2 or 3 teams, make some of the parts available via TRD and play in the NHRA's sandbox via NHRA's rules, then what is the problem?

 

[elvis]

The grab for money is destroying our heritage.

Who is forcing people to buy the Japanese products? Who is holding a gun to the American buyers head and forcing them to purchase these products? Please do not use the phrase "because they are cheaper" cuz that ain't the case. You can pick up a Malibu a hell of a lot cheaper than you can a Camry or Accord. Maybe it's the fact that the big three are having a hard time building a product that appeals to the American consumer.

 

[HEMI6point1]

Who is forcing people to buy the Japanese products? Who is holding a gun to the American buyers head and forcing them to purchase these products? Please do not use the phrase "because they are cheaper" cuz that ain't the case. You can pick up a Malibu a hell of a lot cheaper than you can a Camry or Accord. Maybe it's the fact that the big three are having a hard time building a product that appeals to the American consumer.

Here's the problem. A person buys an american car and is too stupid to maintain it. When that car falls apart, that person thinks "it fell apart because it's an american car!" Then that same person buys a japanese car and decides to baby the hell out of it and it last a longer time, and that person thinks "It lasts because it's a japanese car!"

 

[HEMI6point1]

BTW, in my opinion other than the Infinitis' (not the rebadged ones) and some Lexus models, japanese cars are the prime example of BORING.

 

[vegasnitro]

BTW, in my opinion other than the Infinitis' (not the rebadged ones) and some Lexus models, japanese cars are the prime example of BORING.

BTW Samuel, I completely agree with you. I have never owned a Japanese car, and it is hard for me to imagine that I would own a Japanese car. Their styling is derivative or bland and their performance is normally a step behind other cars in the same price range. I just don't think they should be excluded from participation if they want to play by the same rules as everybody else.

 

[elvis]

Here's the problem. A person buys an american car and is too stupid to maintain it. When that car falls apart, that person thinks "it fell apart because it's an american car!" Then that same person buys a japanese car and decides to baby the hell out of it and it last a longer time, and that person thinks "It lasts because it's a japanese car!"

That was a joke, right?

 

[HEMI6point1]

That was a joke, right?

I have seen it happen plenty of times.

 

[stanman]

... Lastly, who says there would be no trickle down effect to the sportsmen? I am sure that if Toyota took the time and expense to develop a big block V8, they would try to recoup some of that by making some of the parts available via their TRD arm. ...

The cylinder heads and blocks aren't the issue. It's the rest of the parts! Where is the demand going to come from for companies like Jesel, CP, JE, T&D, and others to produce the internal parts in quantities that make them affordable to produce and sell?

You point out one S/C or S/G racer that is going to spend an extra $10,000 for a Toyota motor over a proven big block Chevy from any number of builders from around the country and I'll show you a S/C or S/G racer with more money than sense!

 

[nick name]

...I just don't think they should be excluded from participation if they want to play by the same rules as everybody else.

I don't have time to answer your other reply, but I can address this one pretty quickly.

I agree with you.

But, the problem is that they're NOT playing by the same rules. The present Pro Stock V8 engines have had 50 years of engineering, research, and development by all the manufacturers involved to get to this point.

It is blatantly unfair for Toyota to buy those parts, "re-engineer" them by taking all the best points from each, and then producing a race part with a Toyota number on it. That's not playing by the rules, that's exactly what they did in NASCAR, and that's one of the reasons I'm against their entry into NHRA (or IHRA, for that matter) Pro Stock.

I understand that Toyota has built a V8 for a few years, I'm guessing less than 10. If they want to take that block (and everything that bolts onto it) and redesign it to displace 500 cubic inches while producing competitive power under the current rules, then more power (pun intended)to them.

As usual, they WON'T play by the rules. They'll take the best efforts of decades of American engineering, add millions of dollars, and then bask in the glow of the PR bots typing "Superior Japanese engineering and quality above all else"

Honestly, I'm not angry or bitter. I'm just totally used up with all the spin.

 

[elvis]

I
It is blatantly unfair for Toyota to buy those parts, "re-engineer" them by taking all the best points from each, and then producing a race part with a Toyota number on it. That's not playing by the rules, that's exactly what they did in NASCAR, and that's one of the reasons I'm against their entry into NHRA (or IHRA, for that matter) Pro Stock.

I don't understand what you are saying. It sounds like you are saying that Toyota is infringing on every one's patent to compete in motorsports. i.e. Chevy block, Ford heads etc... If that was the case, then I would assume lawsuits would be flying around. Or are you just saying that they never have built a V8 and are just taking other V8 designs, modifying it and making it their own. If this is the case, then every manufacturer could be accused of patent infringement. Whoever built the first V8 internal combustion motor has been getting ripped off for years.

 

[vegasnitro]

The cylinder heads and blocks aren't the issue. It's the rest of the parts! Where is the demand going to come from for companies like Jesel, CP, JE, T&D, and others to produce the internal parts in quantities that make them affordable to produce and sell?

You point out one S/C or S/G racer that is going to spend an extra $10,000 for a Toyota motor over a proven big block Chevy from any number of builders from around the country and I'll show you a S/C or S/G racer with more money than sense!

I never promised the parts would be "cheap", "affordable" or even "competitively priced". I just said they may make them available. In the scenario you describe, obviously there would be no incentive to use 'yota parts.

I am going to buy everyone in this thread a Christmas present this year ... a "Jump to Conclusions Mat". Everyone in this thread seems to know what Toyota are going to do and how much it is going to cost everyone ....

http://img274.imageshack.us/img274/4894/jumptoconclusions2xk.jpg

 

[Terry]

I never promised the parts would be "cheap", "affordable" or even "competitively priced". I just said they may make them available. In the scenario you describe, obviously there would be no incentive to use 'yota parts.

I am going to buy everyone in this thread a Christmas present this year ... a "Jump to Conclusions Mat". Everyone in this thread seems to know what Toyota are going to do and how much it is going to cost everyone ....

http://img274.imageshack.us/img274/4894/jumptoconclusions2xk.jpg

Hey Chris, did I bump into another fan of "Office Space"?

 

[vegasnitro]

Hey Chris, did I bump into another fan of "Office Space"?

Say Hi to Lumbergh for me !

 

[Terry]

Saaaaaaaaaaaaaaay, that'd be greaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat!

 

[elvis]

Excuse me, but I believe you have my stapler...