Nitromater
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
Tire vibration blamed in driver's death-Houston Chronicle
- Thread starter Wes
- Start date
d'kid
Nitro Member
Alan,
Thank you, as always... Over the last 2 weeks, I know it's been hard for you not to just say, "shut the 'heck' up, your wrong, that ain't what happened, and when JFR really knows, THEY WILL RELEASE THAT INFORMATION IN A TRANSPARENT WAY THAT LETS EVERYONE KNOW AND WHAT MIGHT PREVENT THIS FROM HAPPENING AGAIN... GIVE THEM TIME, PLEASE"
Thank you, as always... Over the last 2 weeks, I know it's been hard for you not to just say, "shut the 'heck' up, your wrong, that ain't what happened, and when JFR really knows, THEY WILL RELEASE THAT INFORMATION IN A TRANSPARENT WAY THAT LETS EVERYONE KNOW AND WHAT MIGHT PREVENT THIS FROM HAPPENING AGAIN... GIVE THEM TIME, PLEASE"
Nitrohelper
Nitro Member
Hey Alan , I would suggest you also name your sources then too. Some of us that have been burning Nitro for more than 30 years know people, and things that can't be presented in an open forum. Reporters have gone to jail for not reveling informants that are in sensitive positions .
The newspapers are not the "truth papers" , in the legal game we use the saying "consider the source". For me saying "trust me" is the same as saying " It was reported".
You are a valued source on this site ,please just take out a couple of percent before you put the rods out.
none
Nitro Member
Jerry,
I did reveal my sources when this all started,
http://www.nitromater.com/nhra/5764-medlen-info.html
I'm not on the chip or even near it now. If my typing is coming across that way, then I'm sorry, it's not intended to. I'm all for discussion, and that's what I thought we were doing this morning, I'm not upset with anyone here. I'm just trying to share what I can without violating a trust on the other side.
There's absolutly no bad feelings on my end.
Alan
I did reveal my sources when this all started,
http://www.nitromater.com/nhra/5764-medlen-info.html
I'm not on the chip or even near it now. If my typing is coming across that way, then I'm sorry, it's not intended to. I'm all for discussion, and that's what I thought we were doing this morning, I'm not upset with anyone here. I'm just trying to share what I can without violating a trust on the other side.
There's absolutly no bad feelings on my end.
Alan
I'll take Alan at his word any day...
There are so many different kind of "harmonics" and "shakes" going on in race cars. With our TAFC we had what we called the "Hoosier shuffle" which was no big deal and was in fact quite normal. As opposed to full blown tire shake. One time I shelled a rear end (split a titanium housing) and the shake associated with that was so bad that everything in my vision went absolutely gray - and as soon as I lifted came back (though I did hurt for awhile).
Though this is not directly related, did you see the in-car shot of Kenny B. from Gainesville when after the burnout he had that front tire wobble? The steering wheel was just flying around in there back and forth. I've had that happen several times and it is nasty. Once it starts all you can do is get the car stopped to make it go away. That's what I think of with what I'm reading here about this tire vibration issue, once started no stopping it. And that is why it is so important to try to figure it out and prevent it from happening to anybody else.
There are so many different kind of "harmonics" and "shakes" going on in race cars. With our TAFC we had what we called the "Hoosier shuffle" which was no big deal and was in fact quite normal. As opposed to full blown tire shake. One time I shelled a rear end (split a titanium housing) and the shake associated with that was so bad that everything in my vision went absolutely gray - and as soon as I lifted came back (though I did hurt for awhile).
Though this is not directly related, did you see the in-car shot of Kenny B. from Gainesville when after the burnout he had that front tire wobble? The steering wheel was just flying around in there back and forth. I've had that happen several times and it is nasty. Once it starts all you can do is get the car stopped to make it go away. That's what I think of with what I'm reading here about this tire vibration issue, once started no stopping it. And that is why it is so important to try to figure it out and prevent it from happening to anybody else.
Wes
Nitro Member
From the accounts given of Eric's crash it sounds like the vibration he experienced was similar to Eddie Hill's dramatic incident at Sonoma years ago. Eddie's caused the entire car to vibrate apart.
Whether Eric's was caused by an internal tire failure or failure from an outside influence (i.e., debris) the root cause was the tire. Going forward the key issues should be eliminating the propensity for such an event to occur.
From the angle of debris is concerned we have to know if there was something stationary on the track or if something came off Eric's car during the run. Say there was debris on the track...then we need to look at track inspection processes both during events and testing. If something came off the car then we can look at ways to better secure components-such as safety tethers for parts bolted or clamped to chassis and so on.
If the failure was due to the stresses put on the tires we (racers, NHRA/IHRA, SFI, etc.) need to finally take serious and permanent steps to signifigantly reduce and/or eliminate the stresses we put on the cars, drivers, and tires. The only logical answer is to dramtically reduce power output. While there have been many previous attempts to reduce power and downforce I am beginning to believe that the only way to effectively accomplish a lasting reduction in power of a nitro engine is to remove the superchargers and go to an injected-nitro combination. As long as you are able to create atmosphere and squeeze that much fuel into a cylinder the classes will continue to go faster, quicker, and induce the stresses we see today. Every single step that has been taken to "slow down" Top Fuel and Funny Car has resulted in higher financial costs to the teams, increased stresses on drivers and parts, and ultimately quicker ET's and faster speeds.
I know my opinion and idea of taking away superchargers will not be very popular with many people. I can already hear the arguments (they won't sound the same, they won't have as-big of flames, they won't do this, they won't do that, you can't do this, and you can't do that...). But it is long past time that the major drag racing organizations cease the marketing of quicker ET's and faster speeds and start promoting the drivers that sit between the pipes and entertain the fans. As long as the cornerstone of drag racing advertising continues to be centered around "record performances" we'll continnue to require the teams to spend an inordinate amount of money as well as putting the drivers in a much too dangerous position.
Whether Eric's was caused by an internal tire failure or failure from an outside influence (i.e., debris) the root cause was the tire. Going forward the key issues should be eliminating the propensity for such an event to occur.
From the angle of debris is concerned we have to know if there was something stationary on the track or if something came off Eric's car during the run. Say there was debris on the track...then we need to look at track inspection processes both during events and testing. If something came off the car then we can look at ways to better secure components-such as safety tethers for parts bolted or clamped to chassis and so on.
If the failure was due to the stresses put on the tires we (racers, NHRA/IHRA, SFI, etc.) need to finally take serious and permanent steps to signifigantly reduce and/or eliminate the stresses we put on the cars, drivers, and tires. The only logical answer is to dramtically reduce power output. While there have been many previous attempts to reduce power and downforce I am beginning to believe that the only way to effectively accomplish a lasting reduction in power of a nitro engine is to remove the superchargers and go to an injected-nitro combination. As long as you are able to create atmosphere and squeeze that much fuel into a cylinder the classes will continue to go faster, quicker, and induce the stresses we see today. Every single step that has been taken to "slow down" Top Fuel and Funny Car has resulted in higher financial costs to the teams, increased stresses on drivers and parts, and ultimately quicker ET's and faster speeds.
I know my opinion and idea of taking away superchargers will not be very popular with many people. I can already hear the arguments (they won't sound the same, they won't have as-big of flames, they won't do this, they won't do that, you can't do this, and you can't do that...). But it is long past time that the major drag racing organizations cease the marketing of quicker ET's and faster speeds and start promoting the drivers that sit between the pipes and entertain the fans. As long as the cornerstone of drag racing advertising continues to be centered around "record performances" we'll continnue to require the teams to spend an inordinate amount of money as well as putting the drivers in a much too dangerous position.
.
Nitro Member
That's what I've been saying all along yet a few here have attacked me for it.
The tire may have failed on it's own or something may have caused it to fail. Either way, a tire is the only thing on that car that can cause such a massive vibration. A crankshaft or anything else rotating on the car doesn't have the mass and speed to cause a shake that terrible. We've all seen a washing machine walk across the floor when it's out of balance from one too many pairs of jeans or a couple towels in the wrong spot. Now imagine that pair of jeans weighs 15 or 20lbs and that drum is spinning 300 mph and just think what it was doing inside the cockpit.
BlueStangGT
Nitro Member
What about a wheel failure? I'm not suggesting that was the case here but wouldn't that be another component that is capable of producing astronomical vibration if it failed at speed?
jpee
Nitro Member
I'm NOT giving opinions here, just "Asking questions"
1. "IF" as that say it was due to tire vibration, Is it possible that there was a problem with ONLY this one tire.. I'm sure they have quality control when the tires are built.. but could "ONE" bad tire have gotten past inspection?
2. I wonder how many runs (if any) were on "THAT" particular tire.. if it was the first pass.. it could have been just that one tire.. or if it had 2-3 passes on it how did the car perform with it on those runs ?
Just questions that ran through my mind ....
1. "IF" as that say it was due to tire vibration, Is it possible that there was a problem with ONLY this one tire.. I'm sure they have quality control when the tires are built.. but could "ONE" bad tire have gotten past inspection?
2. I wonder how many runs (if any) were on "THAT" particular tire.. if it was the first pass.. it could have been just that one tire.. or if it had 2-3 passes on it how did the car perform with it on those runs ?
Just questions that ran through my mind ....
Let me play devil's advocate. for a moment. We do a couple of washes a day here, and I can't remember the last time the washer got so out of sync that it "walked." Probably because the Maytag machine we have cuts off when the load severely out of balance. That happens a lot. So, perhaps a sensor with a kill switch might be worth looking into, but finding something inherently wrong with the tires is unrealistic because IMHO, it's a confluence of events, i.e. traction, track, tune up, etc. that causes the problem. The tires are just the obvious item that gets noticed.That's what I've been saying all along yet a few here have attacked me for it.
We've all seen a washing machine walk across the floor when it's out of balance from one too many pairs of jeans or a couple towels in the wrong spot. Now imagine that pair of jeans weighs 15 or 20lbs and that drum is spinning 300 mph and just think what it was doing inside the cockpit.
The manufactures aren't making a fortune selling Drag Tires and could walk away from this business in a heart beat. Perhaps a solution that doesn't throw the tire maker under a bus would be more beneficial.
Professor Dave
Nitro Member
Here we take the one piece of information that we have, which is that tire vibration caused Eric's death, and now we start speculating as to why there was tire vibration. I'm not an engineer, but I do have a Ph. D. and one thing that my training has taught me is not to reach any conclusions based on limited data. Hell, that is why Harry Truman said he wanted an economist with only one arm, so he couldn't say on the other hand. I don't think it's too much to ask to let people find out more about what happened before we start arguing about what should be done. Shouldn't that whole thread about about the need for soft walls tell us something.
Last edited:
r2
Nitro Member
OH Dave, please stop making complete sense... Haven't you heard what the Goodyear Tire Press Release said??
Oh yeah, that's right, there hasn't been one yet...
.
Nitro Member
Their spokeman said the tire failed. It might not have been an official press-release but it came right from the spokeman of the company in his official capacity.OH Dave, please stop making complete sense... Haven't you heard what the Goodyear Tire Press Release said??
RickyD
Nitro Member
Seems difficult to me that a tire manufacturer can be blamed for designing a tire that has the capability to give a car the traction it needs to get these absolutely incredible speeds and ETs. This is what the racers wanted from a tire. Now enter the side effects: tire shake, it can be compensated for with chassis tuning so the teams put up with it in exchange for those incredible numbers when they work. Someone recently posted a link to a video that showed an under-funnycar cam aimed at the right rear tire. I have seen the ESPN shots from outside the car but was shocked at the amount of deformity I saw from undercar. This just ain't right for a tire, let alone a tire going 300+. Someone said fix the problem by removing superchargers? I don't think so. If there is a problem with the tire -fix the tire! A stronger tire that won't come apart will surely slow these cars down. Not what I want but what prices are we willing to pay to keep setting records.
For Alan, and some others I just want to make sure that you know that I was in no way offering an opinion in regards to Eric's crash one way or the other. I don't know really any of the actual facts about it. Someone posted something in regards to tire shake, and my somewhat unique experience with that is something that I wanted to share, because I don't think some folks realize how bad it can truly be. If something similar to that occured in Eric's case, but it wouldn't stop when he lifted as you mentioned Alan, then that makes me sick to even think about.
In regards to your question Mike, the only real comparison is what someone else mentioned....a paintshaker. That is without a doubt EXACTLY what it feels like. Imagine your head being in that machine for about 2 seconds.
