johnny
Nitro Member
...and what I'm saying is, availability doesn't make a difference.
Pro Stock Motorcycle Question (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter smokemasterJ
- Start date
...and what I'm saying is, availability doesn't make a difference.
dboxell
Nitro Member
Why should one team be allowed to have exclusive rights to equipment when every other manufacturer HAS to make their equipment availble?
TooTall999
Nitro Member
That's the whole point of contention. Hector Arana says to be competitive(sort of) with the Harleys, he has to run everything on the verge of breakage. It seems the Harleys are able to stay just enough ahead to maintain the appearance of a level playing field; but they maintain control of the class. NHRA added 20 lbs earlier in the season, the V&H camp whined; but continued winning every race so far.
johnny
Nitro Member
Dick, I never said one team should. I am however, saying that in the end, it doesn't (wouldn't) make a difference.
johnny
Nitro Member
I never said it didn't matter. I'm not debating fairness. I said it (availability) wouldn't make a difference.
Considering first, that "make available" and "sell" are not synonymous, I'd offer, if pressed, the engines would only become available on a cost prohibitive, 'Lease with Terms' basis. Establishing that fact, while knowing the engines source, I'll speculate the odds of gaining a competitive edge are greater with the alternative platforms.
If Star/S&S had chosen to make available, via "lease only sealed engine" terms, Arana and Smith would not have had any opportunity to advance the platform. There probably wouldn't be as many packages out there either. With the Two Valve V-Twin and the Inline Four, the purchaser has development options.
Beating Harley/VHR is and always will be, A TALL ORDER. With no insult or offense intended to the other fine competitors, they are one of, if not the, most experienced, knowledgeable, tested and prepared team in the history of the class. Beating them, would likely not happen, with they're gear, that they don't want you to have.
Forcing the availability is realistically, not a path towards equality. It would only change the perception.
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willy
Nitro Member
Johnny, I believe if the Harley configuration were made available to competitors, George could probably kick as$, don't ya think? NHRA is really looking bad over all of this.
johnny
Nitro Member
I think if George was leasing a sealed V-Rod engine and his hands were tied tuning it, which is how lease programs can, and do operate, his results would likely be mid pack. Possession of an engine doesn't guarantee an equal level of development. He'd be better off with the freedom of his own program.
If you look at the V. Gaines, Kent-Brogdon, Shane Gray programs, these are all excellent examples of racers recognizing the advantage of developing as opposed to leasing.
If George could purchase and independently develop the 4-Valve V-Twin, he'd be on a level playing field. His track record suggests he would win his share. George has the resources to potentially win with the 1st Generation Pushrod V-Rod engine if left to his own devices.
On this forum, George and Jackie chime in as well as Matt Smith. I'd love to know if they thought the possibility of winning were greater, speculating the development they would get, in a source controlled, sealed lease package from VHR.
My guess is, as dire the current circumstances currently appear, they'd pass.
To make available, is not necessarily, to sell.
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sdwarf36
Nitro Member
If tomorrow V+H SOLD everyone a NHRA legal package ( with raw head castings-blank cams-brain dead computer-multible trans gear ratios- no clutch set up) do you think the field would all of a sudden be "level"? Of course not-you'd be 3 years behind the team with the most resources and their notebook.
Case in point: Star is back-how come they aren't beating team Hector? Alot of R+D happened over the couple of years they were out.
Case in point: Star is back-how come they aren't beating team Hector? Alot of R+D happened over the couple of years they were out.
johnny
Nitro Member
Another twist on the 'make available' argument that presents a number of valid points.
dboxell
Nitro Member
That is the other side of the coin, GBIII / Star Racing are not allowed to use the 4 valve configuration, and cam arrangement that the V-Rods have.
yoda
Nitro Member
What, exactly, is the difference between the Harley's and the other manufacturers? And why, exactly, can't the other manufacturers build a motor based on what seems to be working for the premiere bikes in the class, from their own castings and engineering? Do the HD motors have more camshafts? Bigger valves? More c.i.? What is the big difference that is so unachieveable by the other teams/ manufacturers?
sdwarf36
Nitro Member
Deep pockets + a marketing dept. that sees that the money it spends on the team + being the "official bike of the NHRA" as a good investment.
The prior official bike was Suzuki. It gave a bunch of small bikes to the NHRA for the track crew to run around on. And (from what i read years back) didn't see any value of promoting an old engine that hadn't made in years. Different companys-different philosophies.
Personally, I think the backlash is finally at a level that can't be ignored by Glendora any longer.
yoda
Nitro Member
But, from an engineereing standpoint, if NHRA already knows that the H-D combo is overwhelmingly dominant, what prevents them from giving the other bikes the same: valve size/ cam quantity/ C.I./ etc and let the rocket scientists start to play catch up? As it seems now, none of the other manufacturers are getting any closer unless NHRA throws a bunch of lead on the Harleys and the two H-D riders get temporary arthritis in their right wrist...
dboxell
Nitro Member
It is all in the $$$$
yoda
Nitro Member
You're kidding, right?
How much more money could H-D and the V/H team be throwing at their bikes over the Arana's or any of the other competitve teams to have that much of a substancial advantantage like they have had this year?
I know money can buy technology (look at AJR, DSR or JFR), but if the playing field is truly equal when they roll in the gate, why the big whine because the Harleys have the advantage? Doesn't EVERYONE have the same basic platform to start from, regardless of manufacturer, and if they don't, why not?
As long as I can remember, V&H has been a bucks-up operation no matter where they go racing. Nothing wrong with that, but they are the only ones who can run their motor combo. Long gone are the old days when V&H supplied 2/3 of the pro stock field. They have the resources and the money to make it happen. It's similar to what would happen if John Force suddenly went bracket racing at your local track, and the results reflect it as such.
The problem is that the buel teams have a v-twin with a 2 valve pushrod head (please correct me if I am wrong) The harleys have a v-twin with a 4valve dual overhead cam head that only they are allowed to run, the buels are not allowed to run a head of that design.
The Japanese bikes are allready running inline multi valve overhead cam engines.
Buel and Harley have for many years been sister companies, under the current rules Buel teams are not allowed to build engines to match the engines the Harleys are running.
The Japanese bikes are allready running inline multi valve overhead cam engines.
Buel and Harley have for many years been sister companies, under the current rules Buel teams are not allowed to build engines to match the engines the Harleys are running.
That's the point, Martin. Everyone DOESN'T have the same basic platform. The H-D bikes are overhead cam 4 valves. No other twin is allowed that configuration. The other V Twins have to run pushrods and 2 valves. There is an old rule allowing 4 valve Suzukis but it carries a cubic inch penalty that makes it not a viable option.
In every other tech ruling I can remember, the NHRA has mandated that every manufacturer had to make their parts available to any racers who wanted them. I'm not talking about finished parts - like a Ken Black finished Pro Stock head - but rather the raw castings.
For whatever reason, the NHRA did not require H-D to do so. The only two bikes running that engine configuration are the two factory bikes.
When George Bryce started to develop the S&S twin, NHRA's approval was contingent on him selling the same parts to other teams. He did so and continues to do so. Those are the parts that the Aranas are kicking his butt with.
I have never seen an official explanation as to why the process is so different for the Harley racers. Many have formed their own opinions, and with the available evidence it's hard to come to any conclusion other than being the official motorcycle and a major series sponsor has some additional perks.
