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Nhra on h-d exclusivity: No rule against it; still pondering parity adjustment
- Thread starter Bobby Bennett
- Start date
force fan
Nitro Member
Gray also addressed the fact Harley-Davidson parts are not made readily available to all the competitors in the Pro Stock Motorcycle class.
“There has never been a rule against it, and I will give you an example of parity just in other forms of NHRA racing,” said Gray, who was hired by NHRA in July of 2008. “With some of your big Top Fuel and Funny Car teams they make some of their own parts, like maybe a supercharger or cylinder heads or some things of that nature. They don’t make those parts available to other people either. It is not unique to just Pro Stock Motorcycle, and there has never been anything in the rulebook against it. (There is not a rule) that says you have to make parts available to everybody not since I have been here (at NHRA).”
Andrew Hines won the first Full Throttle Series world championship for Harley-Davidson in 2004 and added two more titles in 2005 and 2006. Eddie Krawiec, Hines’ Harley teammate, was a world champ in 2008 and last season.
In 2009, Hector Arana Sr., won NHRA’s Pro Stock Motorcycle world championship on a Buell and in 2010 LE Tonglet was the Pro Stock Motorcycle world champ on a Vance & Hines-powered Suzuki.
Ok so that being said, from what I see they may all make their own parts, but the problem is HD being allowed the 4 valve vs. the rest only being allowed 2 valve push rods, right? So how can that be fair?
Why can't the other teams manufacture their own 4 valve engines? Is it that they can't or NHRA won't allow them? Also, when did the HD team change to the 4 valve engines? Wouldn't that be an important factor in all this?
“There has never been a rule against it, and I will give you an example of parity just in other forms of NHRA racing,” said Gray, who was hired by NHRA in July of 2008. “With some of your big Top Fuel and Funny Car teams they make some of their own parts, like maybe a supercharger or cylinder heads or some things of that nature. They don’t make those parts available to other people either. It is not unique to just Pro Stock Motorcycle, and there has never been anything in the rulebook against it. (There is not a rule) that says you have to make parts available to everybody not since I have been here (at NHRA).”
Andrew Hines won the first Full Throttle Series world championship for Harley-Davidson in 2004 and added two more titles in 2005 and 2006. Eddie Krawiec, Hines’ Harley teammate, was a world champ in 2008 and last season.
In 2009, Hector Arana Sr., won NHRA’s Pro Stock Motorcycle world championship on a Buell and in 2010 LE Tonglet was the Pro Stock Motorcycle world champ on a Vance & Hines-powered Suzuki.
Ok so that being said, from what I see they may all make their own parts, but the problem is HD being allowed the 4 valve vs. the rest only being allowed 2 valve push rods, right? So how can that be fair?
Why can't the other teams manufacture their own 4 valve engines? Is it that they can't or NHRA won't allow them? Also, when did the HD team change to the 4 valve engines? Wouldn't that be an important factor in all this?
Paul
Nitro Member
Here's the problem with this approach-
Particularly in the "stock" classes, we've never before had a situation where only one specific team was allowed to run a very specific engine combination that had its own set of rules.
If you wanted to race Ford's, Chevy's, whatever, you could race them.
The example of some teams making their own special parts doesn't fly as in the examples given (ie top fuel blowers, heads, blocks, etc.) those parts still have to conform to standard rules that everyone else has a chance to also take advantage of. Ie, if I want to fab up and race a special set of heads similar to the ones that John Force is building, nothing is stopping me from doing so as long as I conform to the same rules the Force team in conforming to.
The Harley PSM situation is very different. Only once team is allowed to race the brand and on top of that, only that team gets to build engines using rules that give them an advantage.
Its totally contrary to the spirit of drag racing, ie everyone should have the chance to pick a brand and then build the best engine they can within the rules for that brand.
On top of it, having these "special rules" that give an advantage to only that one "chosen" team is just flat not fair.
The whole situation just doesn't make any sense and it goes against the fundamental spirit of drag racing, its got to be fixed.
force fan
Nitro Member
It seems the NHRA keeps trying to bring up issues that really doesn't have anything to do with the problem. Why won't they just answer the big question: Why does HD get to run 4 valve engines while everyone else only gets to race 2 valve push rods? It's not a hard question!!!
t-roy
Nitro Member
“There has never been a rule against it, and I will give you an example of parity just in other forms of NHRA racing,” said Gray, who was hired by NHRA in July of 2008. “With some of your big Top Fuel and Funny Car teams they make some of their own parts, like maybe a supercharger or cylinder heads or some things of that nature. They don’t make those parts available to other people either. It is not unique to just Pro Stock Motorcycle, and there has never been anything in the rulebook against it. (There is not a rule) that says you have to make parts available to everybody not since I have been here (at NHRA).”
That is the lamest way of thinking ever...
Every Top Fuel team HAS to have a supercharger....Every team HAS a supercharger that they either built or purchased. Total BS!
That is the lamest way of thinking ever...
Every Top Fuel team HAS to have a supercharger....Every team HAS a supercharger that they either built or purchased. Total BS!
Professor Dave
Nitro Member
Suppose someone comes up with a four-valve, DOHC head for the Buells-do you think that NHRA would approve it? Did they approve the head design that Shawn Gann's dad came up with for the Suziki?
Dave
Nitro Member
You must not know the full history of the NHRA. Pro "stock" was very much a specific engine combination with a horsepower to weight ratio. If you ran a big block or a small block you had to meet different weight factors. That's why the camaros were replaced with vegas, the mustangs with pintos, etc... It was not until 1982 that they made a standardized 500 cubic inch limit. Bob Glidden and Lee Sheperd proved they could win during both sets of circumstances.
Nick Name
Nitro Member
Is Gray really that clueless?
You think that is the case, or is he just not being honest.
Bill
Nitro Member
To criticize someone for not knowing the history of Pro Stock and then say, " Pro "stock" was very much a specific engine combination with a horsepower to weight ratio" is the most uninformed thing I believe I have ever read on Nitromater.
Pro Stock has never EVER had any rule that metioned "horsepower."
NEVER. Especially, not "horsepower to weight."
Stock Eliminator and Super Stock cars are classified by "factored" horsepower divided into their respective shipping weights, but Pro Stock NEVER had any such system, probably because nobody ever had any idea (except the engine builders) as to how much horsepower those engines made.
For several years prior to 1982, NHRA DID use cubic inches and engine types to classify Pro Stock cars with more efficient engine designs (such as the canted-valve Fords and Hemi Mopars,) being required to carry more weight per cubic inch than less efficient designs (such as the true wedge small block Chevys) but NEVER was there any mention of horsepower RE: the classification of Pro Stocks in NHRA racing.
You need to get your "history" straight before you go off on somebody with totally wrong information like this...
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PiPPi
Nitro Member
On a limb in a tree standing on thin ice here but I'd venture to say that that was not too far off a while back.
Regards
PiPPi
Those weight breaks were not part of the class when it first started in 1970. It was only after the whiney butt GM and Ford racers couldn't keep up with the almighty Hemis that NHRA effectively factored Mopar out of competition.
They jacked around with weight breaks until they finally gave up and went with a max engine size and minimum weight.
Nobody ran small blocks until the weight breaks came into effect.
"If you can't beat them, ban them."
TooTall999
Nitro Member
One of the biggest problems with this approach is that there is only one approved supplier of the V-rod body, and guess what? Nobody can buy one...they're back ordered for the next 10 years or something like that.
Sean D, shondoo
Nitro Member
Why won't they just answer the big question: Why does HD get to run 4 valve engines while everyone else only gets to race 2 valve push rods? It's not a hard question!!!
Amen!!!
BINGO!!!
Sean D
Paul
Nitro Member
Dave, I'm very familiar with the history of Pro Stock, I'm a big fan and as an old fart I've been following it for many many years and even remember seeing the AMC team run. In addition the majority of the current teams use valve spring testers that my company builds so I follow the current teams very closely.
Perhaps I didn't make my point well, I understand that different engine combinations have had different rules.
The point was that we've never had a situation where only one team was allowed to run a particular engine combination, and making the situation even worse is the fact that the combination has a clear advantage.
TooTall999
Nitro Member
Amen !!!
Dave
Nitro Member
Close enough. It's what I meant anyways!
Bill
Nitro Member
Well, say what you mean... LOL!!!
I apologize for my sharp-edged response; I was already in a bad mood and should never have written that antagonistic, hyper-critical response.
Like I said, I'm sorry and I appreciate that you were a good sport about it.
Some interesting Pro Stock history, I think: AMC Pro Stock racers got tired of getting outrun and took four (4) cylinder heads and sliced them longitudally, so that they had eight (8) "halves"... but the "halves" were not equally tall; they sliced them in such a way as to create two, each, approximately 5-percent "taller" pieces out of all those "halves," and welded the tall pieces together, making for taller (bigger) ports.
It worked; they started winning with the new head(s).
They never "contributed" to NHRA, though.... so, NHRA quickly banned the "new" heads.
LOL!
The more things change, the more they stay the same; Money talks, B.S. walks...
Bill, in Conway, Arkansas
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