New F/C Tether system (9 Viewers)

[ironpony]

Indy and F1 make their teams run multiple races with the same engine (whether they do or not is anyone's guess after reading The Unfair Advantage and finding out about Ganassi's mile long tunnel used for coast down DA). But, a line has to be drawn and right now the rules only benefit teams with very wealthy owners or an inhouse manufacturing capacity. If the rule states the engine you tech'd in with detroys itself, take down the awning and go home, then one of two things will happen. Teams back down their tuneups so their meager sponsors will see the car run more than once, or pressure will be placed on the parts supply community to make better parts (yes, I know Alan, for more money). Jason Line often says insanity is doing the same thing every time and expecting a different outcome. Fuel classes are currently insane. Teams now accept catastrophic engine damage will occur every event.

It is not impractical or wrong headed to expect a fuel engine to make 15 passes before replacing parts, just as it was not impractical or wrong headed to build Hoover dam or park three non-drivers on top of a 300 foot tall rocket and go hit five irons on the moon. We just need to put our big boy pants on and do it.

Most of the driveline parts are limited to 3-4 units per season or there are penalties. Also the race they are changed will result in starting from the rear or pit lane.

There is a possible solution, blow it up and have to replace it start from 16th.

 

[Marchboom]

Put a limit on camshaft lift and duration. This would be easy to check by the tech crew and it could be checked randomly while the crews are doing their between-rounds service. Less valve lift and duration means less air and nitro in the cylinders. Less wear and tear on the valve train components. And unless I'm missing something, this wouldn't cost any more than the car owner is spending now. Buy a new cam...big deal, chump change. At least worth a try.

NHRA had better get a handle on the frequency of explosions and the extremely high cost of nitro racing or TF and FC racing will be a thing of the past. And it will be NHRA's fault.

 

[Ponyhntr]

Put a limit on camshaft lift and duration. This would be easy to check by the tech crew and it could be checked randomly while the crews are doing their between-rounds service. Less valve lift and duration means less air and nitro in the cylinders. Less wear and tear on the valve train components. And unless I'm missing something, this wouldn't cost any more than the car owner is spending now. Buy a new cam...big deal, chump change. At least worth a try.

NHRA had better get a handle on the frequency of explosions and the extremely high cost of nitro racing or TF and FC racing will be a thing of the past. And it will be NHRA's fault.

You would be amazed at how small the cams are in those engines. You could damn near put it in an everyday passenger car in comparison. Limiting cam size won’t be the answer.

 

[none]

You can't compare a Nitro engine to anything else.
What would you do to stop a team from making one run in qualifying, then sitting out. Knowing that if the blow an engine they will be at a disadvantage on Sunday? (And yes, I know small teams do this)

If you allow two engines and the ability to swap back and forth, then we are right back to having a welding and machine shop. Because when I hurt the first one, I swap it. Then have to repair it in case I hurt the other one. And again, would you rather they do a quick patch at the track, or swap in a fresh one and fix the wounded one at the shop?

I have said before, you are not trying to drop 500 HP, you need to drop 5000 HP. You can easily fix this. Ban blowers. Who wants that? Me neither.

Alan

 

[Litefoot]

Take away some of the super glue, you can run a top fuel car way more rounds if you can not get gear drive type traction to crankshafts through superglued track surfaces, a motor that is built to withstand 12,000 plus horsepower is much harder to break if you can only get enough traction to use 8,000 to 10,000 horsepower to hook up, it will last much longer and need fewer new parts, crew chiefs would need to soften the tune not build new motors, having the effect of the lower funded teams to be able to compete with brains rather than unlimited money

 

[Ponyhntr]

Take away some of the super glue, you can run a top fuel car way more rounds if you can not get gear drive type traction to crankshafts through superglued track surfaces, a motor that is built to withstand 12,000 plus horsepower is much harder to break if you can only get enough traction to use 8,000 to 10,000 horsepower to hook up, it will last much longer and need fewer new parts, crew chiefs would need to soften the tune not build new motors, having the effect of the lower funded teams to be able to compete with brains rather than unlimited money

National Event tracks use very little ‘super glue’. They are more prepped for safety than anything.

Most ProMod-specific races have way more glue on the track than a National Event. And those don’t even compare to a radial-tire event like the ones at South Georgia.

 

[Steve Wayne]

At the end of the day we can all pitch around ideas to slow the cars and destruction down, but then in no time you are right back to square one. The big money teams will throw all kinds of money at R&D to make the new combo faster and faster while the low budget teams fall behind again. The new combo will be pushed to its limits, stretching every ounce of performance out of it, and we are back to ticking time bombs again. I get the premise of what Ken is trying to do with the single block deal, in the thought that if you only have one you will do what you can to not blow it up. But nitro racers and crew chiefs aren’t in the sport to figure out how to reign back their program to save an engine, if you’re not pushing constantly to gain an advantage over the next guy, what fun is it anymore?

 

[ironpony]

At the end of the day we can all pitch around ideas to slow the cars and destruction down, but then in no time you are right back to square one. The big money teams will throw all kinds of money at R&D to make the new combo faster and faster while the low budget teams fall behind again. The new combo will be pushed to its limits, stretching every ounce of performance out of it, and we are back to ticking time bombs again. I get the premise of what Ken is trying to do with the single block deal, in the thought that if you only have one you will do what you can to not blow it up. But nitro racers and crew chiefs aren’t in the sport to figure out how to reign back their program to save an engine, if you’re not pushing constantly to gain an advantage over the next guy, what fun is it anymore?

So while everyone is complaining it is too expensive and we are going to lose our sport, The real answer is turn em loose. let em eat and let the chips fall where they may.
When there is no money left to regularly blow stuff up they will then decide hey if I want to keep racing I need to do XXX.
I guess in due time the problem will fix itself, we will be back to racers in their garages trying to go fast and the cycle will start over again.
The main difference will be when they are paying their own bill I guarantee you they will not be blowing stuff up.

This could be the year, after all the carnage last year and the additional development for this year I see spectacular shows coming. They have reached the breaking point of available technology, I just hope no one gets seriously injured in the process.

 

[ironpony]

You can't compare a Nitro engine to anything else.
What would you do to stop a team from making one run in qualifying, then sitting out. Knowing that if the blow an engine they will be at a disadvantage on Sunday? (And yes, I know small teams do this)

If you allow two engines and the ability to swap back and forth, then we are right back to having a welding and machine shop. Because when I hurt the first one, I swap it. Then have to repair it in case I hurt the other one. And again, would you rather they do a quick patch at the track, or swap in a fresh one and fix the wounded one at the shop?

I have said before, you are not trying to drop 500 HP, you need to drop 5000 HP. You can easily fix this. Ban blowers. Who wants that? Me neither.

Alan

You have made this point many times now. You have also stated you know what you would do but have not stated what that is.
You are the most experienced in the know person on here so what is your suggestion ??

And in answer to your question, There will be no repairing of the damaged block at the track, you rendered it unserviceable it is done.

I guarantee you that the people that keep going faster with the same basic parts, as there haven't been any substantial changes, can slow them back down.
Drop the RPM or change the rear gear ratio, they will have to slow down all the timers to not max out before the finish line, basic math applied.

Goodyear hasn't developed a new tire in years, they are going to be the ones to come out and go WHOOOOO enough.

 

[Ponyhntr]

You have made this point many times now. You have also stated you know what you would do but have not stated what that is.
You are the most experienced in the know person on here so what is your suggestion ??

And in answer to your question, There will be no repairing of the damaged block at the track, you rendered it unserviceable it is done.

I guarantee you that the people that keep going faster with the same basic parts, as there haven't been any substantial changes, can slow them back down.
Drop the RPM or change the rear gear ratio, they will have to slow down all the timers to not max out before the finish line, basic math applied.

Goodyear hasn't developed a new tire in years, they are going to be the ones to come out and go WHOOOOO enough.

If a team damages a block at the track they WILL try to repair it if they can't put a new one in. That's what racers do. They will do everything they can to get the win. It's been proven time and time again.

Even the best tuners in the sport have explosions. Most of the time it's not due to the 'tune up', it's due to parts failures. A lot of these failures are not due to how 'hard' they are leaning on the tune up, it's just the nature of the beast. Anything you put nitro in can and will blow up, at any time. Just look at the Heritage Series. Those cars are backed down substantially and they still blow up.

Goodyear does have a new tire on tap. Have for several years. It's just not time to bring it out quite yet, for a variety of reasons.

 

[mick]

....... Goodyear does have a new tire on tap .......

hopefully it is yesteryear's compound that does long, smoky burnouts

 

[Ponyhntr]

hopefully it is yesteryear's compound that does long, smoky burnouts

I always give the Goodyear engineers $hit about how they need to put the smoke back in the tires...

 

[Steve Wayne]

So while everyone is complaining it is too expensive and we are going to lose our sport, The real answer is turn em loose. let em eat and let the chips fall where they may.
When there is no money left to regularly blow stuff up they will then decide hey if I want to keep racing I need to do XXX.
I guess in due time the problem will fix itself, we will be back to racers in their garages trying to go fast and the cycle will start over again.
The main difference will be when they are paying their own bill I guarantee you they will not be blowing stuff up.

This could be the year, after all the carnage last year and the additional development for this year I see spectacular shows coming. They have reached the breaking point of available technology, I just hope no one gets seriously injured in the process.

I don’t disagree with you that something probably should be done, but the reality is it won’t, and for many reasons stated. I think the one block rule would kill nitro racing way faster than blowing stuff up will, it’s inevitable if you put nitro in it, it’s gonna blow up at some point. I completely get your idea and in theory it works to and extent, but how do you explain to a sponsor that you didn’t make the show and get any tv time because a valve failed and eliminated you in qualifying. 9 times out of 10 the big boomers are from parts failure. There really isn’t a great answer to the issue without castrating the nitro cars imo.

 

[Nunz]

I always give the Goodyear engineers $hit about how they need to put the smoke back in the tires...

I'm glad this was brought up. Josh, if you have a dialogue with Goodyear engineers, you need to hammer them on this LOL. Maybe they can't do it while building a tire that works in the modern era, but if they could, that would be a game changer. Fans really loved the fogbanks from the burnouts. Bringing those types of burnouts back would be more exciting than fuel cars going back to 1/4 mile, IMO.

 

[mick]

i'd rather see slower e.t.s, lower mph's, and longer burnouts, but that's just me.
the CC's are wizards. they could surely devise safe and moderately priced methods to back these cars down, while delivering
the same, or better entertainment for the fans ..... and for sure we don't need super glue tracks for pro nitro racing. what they
are doing know seems to work, especially when you have nitro to 1000', and PS and other high HP classes to 1320'.

 

[Marchboom]

You would be amazed at how small the cams are in those engines. You could damn near put it in an everyday passenger car in comparison. Limiting cam size won’t be the answer.

Then make the cams even smaller. OR reduce the size of the intake valve. Anything to reduce the amount of fuel getting into the engine.

This is for Alan: Have the crew chiefs ever gotten together to figure out how to reduce the number of explosions and to reduce the cost of fuel racing? It would appear that their future is at stake too. Fewer race teams (due to the high expense) result in a reduced need for crew chiefs and crew members.

 

[ch streetcars]

Maybe NHRA should decide if they are in the entertainment business of putting fans in the stands and watching close races thereby supporting sponsorship opportunities, OR; a place for hard-core drag racing fans to watch ultimate speed and E.T. demonstrations such as Bonneville does. The show without burnouts, throttle whacks, night racing and full fields, just isn't as good as it used to be. The stands , with some exceptions , don't lie. Even if a team has unlimited funding, without smaller teams filling out fields and making things interesting, I'm not going to attract a sponsor. The National events use to hold fans late into the night with crews working on the cars , vendors selling food, fans getting to interact with the teams on a more relaxed atmosphere, when the day cools. Now at most races they push you out by evening and that time that casual fans became super-fans is gone. As I've said before, when I retire , I want to introduce my grandkids to the sport , we don't want it to go away someday. Back em down somehow, or risk more decline in the sport.

 

[sammi]

I am sure many of my fellow old fart keyboard crew chiefs fell in love with the sport back when teams, bad choice of words, a driver and a couple of buddies towed their small trailer with a station wagon to the track and made do with what they could bring with them. One of the reasons The Surfers are so beloved was for a couple of years, they ran hard and towed all of their *&^() around with a '55 Chevy. I am saddened by all the ostentatious wealth flung in our faces in the pits today. I didn't fall in love with drag racing to fawn over inappropriate displays of wealth, either real or heavily leveraged. Do we REALLY need two or more transporters per fuel team? Do we REALLY need four complete long blocks in the trailer? Do we REALLY need a complete car in the rafters, ready to run? Like Nascar and Indycar, NHRA fuel teams seem hellbent to distance themselves from the reality of us crawling around the pits sniffing for nitro.

 

[sutton]

I was not going to commit on this because everyone has their opinion on the problem and they all have the right too their opinion. So the only thing I want to say is fuel racing will never go back too my time in top fuel but if this crazy type of fuel racing continues, fuel racing will end because Goodyear will say enough is enough we can't continue to build a tire that will be safe at the higher speed and we will be liable for the results of the speeds attained. If Goodyear pulls out fuel racing is done. no other tire manufacturer will invest the time or money to support drag racing because they have so many other types of motorsports to advertise their product. If not goodyear then the lawyers will back out.
Larry Sutton---

 

[mick]

...... that time that casual fans became super-fans is gone ......

love this. IMO for the most part it's true. the fans have lost a lot, and it shows.