ironpony
Nitro Member
OK so what do you suggest they do to slow them down and real in costs ??
New F/C Tether system (9 Viewers)
- Thread starter Cliff
- Start date
OK so what do you suggest they do to slow them down and real in costs ??
ironpony
Nitro Member
Ok.
I am being generous here, one block, physical block not short block, a solid chunk of aluminum, if they can not make that last a weekend ....................
z28
Nitro Member
the way main bearing hold down are stripping out in the block there won't be anybody left to run the finals. Years ago they (NHRA) started allowing one time replacement chassis during a race. The show must go on and with the short turnaround times for TV a lot of things are allowed now days. The cost of insurance will determine if new rules are implemented. That's when things get serious.
- Thread starter
- #24
Alky could replace nitro, but you can still blow them up as well. Have seen alky fires almost as bad as nitro. Was reading the above posts. I was at OCIR in the early 70's, sitting in the top end bleachers, and 2 back motor T/F cars came thru the lights. One blew the blower, BIG flames coming out of the back, and I felt the heat where I was sitting in top row. Would hate to experience that today.
Just Paul
Nitro Member
OK. Follow me here. Do you think every engine change is due to a tune up related issue?? Do you think it’s remotely possible something outside the control of the crew chief could cause some sort of issue where it can’t be run?
And if that’s the rule, don’t say there can be exceptions, because that would cause a whole different set of issues.
It’s not 1973 anymore as much as you hate to think that.
Just Paul
Nitro Member
I was in Dallas when Ken Singleton had his awful fire and was severely burned a few years back. I’d put that fire severity up against any nitro car fire in the last 30 years. Probably longer.
ironpony
Nitro Member
OK so we will continue to watch bodies turned to confetti, engines into shrapnel, do not complain about the costs and low budget teams not showing up, short fields and no new sponsors.
Look around we do not have real sponsors we have rich guys paying their own way to race. How long is this going to be sustainable ?? will we see full fields this year ?
Add in IHRA and teams being able to run there, it is going to be an interesting year.
Look around we do not have real sponsors we have rich guys paying their own way to race. How long is this going to be sustainable ?? will we see full fields this year ?
Add in IHRA and teams being able to run there, it is going to be an interesting year.
none
Nitro Member
Not arguing, just discussing. If you limit a team to one block those who can afford it will have compete welding/machining capabilities at the track to repair that one block.
Example: The engine spins a main bearing and pulls the studs out.
Today the team replaces the short block and takes the hurt one back to the shop, makes it good as new and it goes back in service.
You would force them to weld, grind, patch together (In a hurry) that block and run it again, all but insuring the next failure will be catastrophic. You would put the driver in danger, and increase the likelihood of an oil down.
Any small issue that leads to a preventative engine swap would be disallowed. So instead of putting in a good piece they would be forced to run a questionable one. Often times they will change an engine just to be on the safe side so they can take the time to inspect the one coming out later. You would also be preventing that.
Do you really want to do that?
Edit: What if after the run the bottom end guy notices the crankshaft is cracked? The block is fine. But you can't change a crankshaft in an hour, so you would just swap the short block. If you are not allowed to do that. do you drop out of the race? Or chance making the run with the cracked crank?
Alan
Example: The engine spins a main bearing and pulls the studs out.
Today the team replaces the short block and takes the hurt one back to the shop, makes it good as new and it goes back in service.
You would force them to weld, grind, patch together (In a hurry) that block and run it again, all but insuring the next failure will be catastrophic. You would put the driver in danger, and increase the likelihood of an oil down.
Any small issue that leads to a preventative engine swap would be disallowed. So instead of putting in a good piece they would be forced to run a questionable one. Often times they will change an engine just to be on the safe side so they can take the time to inspect the one coming out later. You would also be preventing that.
Do you really want to do that?
Edit: What if after the run the bottom end guy notices the crankshaft is cracked? The block is fine. But you can't change a crankshaft in an hour, so you would just swap the short block. If you are not allowed to do that. do you drop out of the race? Or chance making the run with the cracked crank?
Alan
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ironpony
Nitro Member
Alan,
You present the same discussion every time this matter is brought up.
To clarify my thought process is you hurt the block you're done, pack up and go home.
Based on your thought process teams like JFR and Kallita could just bring 4 complete cars to the track and not even have to freshen them between rounds. A lot of teams could bring 2 complete cars and take their time freshening up and not have to rush. With all the spares they bring it probably wouldn't even cost them more money.
Think of the sponsorship possibilities, a different body with a new primary sponsor for every round, might actually make it affordable for smaller sponsors.
Heck if they did this we could actually make nitro TV friendly as they could just jump in the other car and be ready to go in 20 minutes instead of an hour plus watching twenty replays to fill in the dead airtime especially towards the final round.
As you say not arguing but something needs to be done to reel in costs.
ch streetcars
Nitro Member
Like always , Alan brings up good facts in discussion, that's why he should be in a leadership position in our sport! But what Ken is saying, and others that go to events, say , and worry about, including myself, is that Nitro racing today, is not sustainable for very many teams or wealthy people , as evidenced by declining independent teams. So Alan , or anyone else on here, if you were put in charge of NHRA , what could you do to contain costs and explosions? That would lead to more fans in the stands, more side-by-side races, more cars per event, and hopefully some new sponsors. Even wealthy people get tired of paying for the cars blowing up, I've had many drivers or crew members tell me that over the last 45 years. They didn't get to where they are by burning money without reward.
none
Nitro Member
Ken,
I bring it up everytime because it is still true. So Q1 on the burnout you break a rod and you're done for the weekend?
And I know you were exagerating to make the point but you know that only one car change per weekend is allowed.
I do know what I would do, and was going to do at IHRA when I was there. You also have the problem of the teams all being very resistant to change.
Alan
I bring it up everytime because it is still true. So Q1 on the burnout you break a rod and you're done for the weekend?
And I know you were exagerating to make the point but you know that only one car change per weekend is allowed.
I do know what I would do, and was going to do at IHRA when I was there. You also have the problem of the teams all being very resistant to change.
Alan
ironpony
Nitro Member
OK how about one block change per weekend ?? And what would you of done ??
mick
Nitro Member
Alan, whatever your IHRA idea was, do you think the IHRA may try to implement something different than NHRA
to help with costs? or have they already with only two Q passes?
still can't figure out exactly how wilk's new tether system attaches to front of chassis. there is a pic on the complus article
showing a finger pointing at pins on the front corners; but the front latches still latch. there must be a latch release tied to the tethers
as pressure under the body blows body up? i don't want to say i can't wait to see it's results, but how else can you say it.
to help with costs? or have they already with only two Q passes?
still can't figure out exactly how wilk's new tether system attaches to front of chassis. there is a pic on the complus article
showing a finger pointing at pins on the front corners; but the front latches still latch. there must be a latch release tied to the tethers
as pressure under the body blows body up? i don't want to say i can't wait to see it's results, but how else can you say it.
none
Nitro Member
Ken,
If that was the rule and I made it through qualifying unscathed, I think I would put a new engine in for Eliminations, one with brand new everything if I had one, thinking it would make it through to the finals. But if it chucked a rod would you let me put the old one back in? Or once I swapped am I stuck with it?
Alan
sammi
Nitro Member
Indy and F1 make their teams run multiple races with the same engine (whether they do or not is anyone's guess after reading The Unfair Advantage and finding out about Ganassi's mile long tunnel used for coast down DA). But, a line has to be drawn and right now the rules only benefit teams with very wealthy owners or an inhouse manufacturing capacity. If the rule states the engine you tech'd in with detroys itself, take down the awning and go home, then one of two things will happen. Teams back down their tuneups so their meager sponsors will see the car run more than once, or pressure will be placed on the parts supply community to make better parts (yes, I know Alan, for more money). Jason Line often says insanity is doing the same thing every time and expecting a different outcome. Fuel classes are currently insane. Teams now accept catastrophic engine damage will occur every event.
It is not impractical or wrong headed to expect a fuel engine to make 15 passes before replacing parts, just as it was not impractical or wrong headed to build Hoover dam or park three non-drivers on top of a 300 foot tall rocket and go hit five irons on the moon. We just need to put our big boy pants on and do it.
It is not impractical or wrong headed to expect a fuel engine to make 15 passes before replacing parts, just as it was not impractical or wrong headed to build Hoover dam or park three non-drivers on top of a 300 foot tall rocket and go hit five irons on the moon. We just need to put our big boy pants on and do it.
So, what if the tune up was not the problem and it is a problem with wrist pin material and there is no way to know until it gives up the ghost mid pass? Do you still feel like the team and sponsor should be penalized for that. One block per weekend would not be a good rule. I have brand new rod bolts break at 7 passes on a brand on a 650 HP engine.
- Thread starter
- #38
There are quite a number of ways to make a nitro engine "safer".
Limit the amount of nitro to 75%
12:71 blower
1 magneto
smaller tires
etc etc etc
I would rather watch 2 cars on 75% go side by side than #1 VS #16 and #16 shuts off.
Even on 75%, the engines are still loud. Fans love the noise as much as anything. Two front engine nostalgia cars will shake the ground as they leave the line and make about as much noise as T/F.
I well remember seeing T/F back in the daze. Open trailer, one engine, few spare parts, make 3 Q runs and then run elims. Same engine. Am well aware different times, etc. But I loved watching them run just as much as today. And yes, if you broke the motor, you went home. That's where the "break rule" came in - low ET loser came in to replace the broken car. That could be something to think about today if you could only run one engine.
Just my 2 cents.
Limit the amount of nitro to 75%
12:71 blower
1 magneto
smaller tires
etc etc etc
I would rather watch 2 cars on 75% go side by side than #1 VS #16 and #16 shuts off.
Even on 75%, the engines are still loud. Fans love the noise as much as anything. Two front engine nostalgia cars will shake the ground as they leave the line and make about as much noise as T/F.
I well remember seeing T/F back in the daze. Open trailer, one engine, few spare parts, make 3 Q runs and then run elims. Same engine. Am well aware different times, etc. But I loved watching them run just as much as today. And yes, if you broke the motor, you went home. That's where the "break rule" came in - low ET loser came in to replace the broken car. That could be something to think about today if you could only run one engine.
Just my 2 cents.
ch streetcars
Nitro Member
You hit the nail on the head here about fans wanting to see two cars make a successful pass, side by side down the race track ! Why are so many races playing before sparse crowds ? What changed ? Why don't we have beer sponsors , household consumables like laundry soap, toothpaste or a thousand other companies seeking exposure ? Because , most people don't care if the cars go 340+mph if they shut off or blow up often. The show needs to improve, and I argue you need night racing. It's just not fun on a 90 degree day , watching cars go up in smoke. This is a good discussion , everybody here wants our sport to succeed and thrive.
ironpony
Nitro Member
