nitro
Nitro Member
Nitrophoto : Is there room for common sense in Pro Mod racing.
Would love to hear your comments. Good, bad or other wise.
Would love to hear your comments. Good, bad or other wise.
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- Thread starter nitro
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I started to mention something about the drivers staying in the throttle too long, but not personally having driven a ProMod car, I figured it would be best not to comment. But I've competed in SuperGas, and despite being a far cry from PM, you can wad one of those up, too, and for the same reason.
In my opinion, Flamholc's crash was absolutely the result of the car getting waaaaaaaaay out of the groove, and his keeping on the gas a bit too long. I can see where the butterflies shut right before the car went completely sideways, but he should have shuttered that thing about 1/2 second into the run. The car went straight right at the hit, and 3500HP isn't going to be denied.
Should have - but could he have? I don't know. Things happen quickly in a 240MPH race car. He may have done all anyone could have done under the circumstances. If you're going to race at this level, you'd better be willing to deal with the dark side of it, which will more than likely bite you if you stay at it long enough.
In my opinion, Flamholc's crash was absolutely the result of the car getting waaaaaaaaay out of the groove, and his keeping on the gas a bit too long. I can see where the butterflies shut right before the car went completely sideways, but he should have shuttered that thing about 1/2 second into the run. The car went straight right at the hit, and 3500HP isn't going to be denied.
Should have - but could he have? I don't know. Things happen quickly in a 240MPH race car. He may have done all anyone could have done under the circumstances. If you're going to race at this level, you'd better be willing to deal with the dark side of it, which will more than likely bite you if you stay at it long enough.
Sean D, shondoo
Nitro Member
I tend to agree with Carl, for the most part. I would go on to add that I call BS on drivers being "wired like that". Getting the car to the other end "no matter what" is not the driver's job. And if you don't understand that, then you have no business being in a Jr. Dragster, let alone a Pro Mod, which I consider to be the most difficult cars to drive on the planet, no matter the motorsport.
When I went to Roy Hill's Pro Stock deal in the mid-90's, there was a guy that, when he made his first full pull, was all over the track. He never lifted and ended up posting a decent number, but Roy was beside himself. The guy came back, got out of the car all swelled up like he just set the National Record, and Roy lit his a$$ up like a roman candle. I realize Roy has a reputation, but in this instance he was right, period. Was he quick? Yeah. But he was about as reckless and irresponsible as one could be behind the wheel of that car.
I guess the point I'm taking forever to make is pretty simple; yes, there is absolutely room for common sense in Pro Mod. Driving a race car, ANY race car, is about absolute mental AND physical control. If you have it, you can succeed.
Sean D
When I went to Roy Hill's Pro Stock deal in the mid-90's, there was a guy that, when he made his first full pull, was all over the track. He never lifted and ended up posting a decent number, but Roy was beside himself. The guy came back, got out of the car all swelled up like he just set the National Record, and Roy lit his a$$ up like a roman candle. I realize Roy has a reputation, but in this instance he was right, period. Was he quick? Yeah. But he was about as reckless and irresponsible as one could be behind the wheel of that car.
I guess the point I'm taking forever to make is pretty simple; yes, there is absolutely room for common sense in Pro Mod. Driving a race car, ANY race car, is about absolute mental AND physical control. If you have it, you can succeed.
Sean D
RebilasPhoto
Nitro Member
While I am not an aerodynamics expert, I have witnessed countless NASCAR crashes at high speed tracks where roof flaps are heavily relied on. In my opinion, roof flaps wouldn't have done anything to save Adam, Tim or any of the other recent PM/PS crashes. Roof flaps are designed to prevent the car from lifting off from air getting beneath the car/wing like an airplane, not digging in and rolling or hitting wall at a hard angle and rolling.
Almost every door slammer flip I can think of in the last 20 years (and I can think of a lot) has been the result of rolling the car over from the rapid weight transfer/distribution that comes with a hard turn or hard impact with the wall causing car to come off the ground (as in Flamholcs case), in which case its too late for roof flaps to help. The highly prepped track is so sticky that it also plays a big role in helping the car roll over.
Roof flaps mainly prevent the car from lifting off like a plane.
As far as recent crashes I can think of where roof flaps would have prevented a flip the only one that comes to mind is Lizzy Musi's Bristol crash. She still would have still crashed with the flaps but instead of going airborne over the wall with very little impact she would have nailed the left lane wall hard.
Outside of slowing them down by adding downforce or restricting performance, I don't see much they can do to change things besides lifting earlier, which sometimes even that wont save you.
We can all be happy the car builders make them so safe for the drivers.
Btw, along with window nets on the drivers window I think they really need to put nets above the drivers head in the roll cage roof area. In any crash with fast barrel rolls the roof bodywork almost always flies off leaving a large area for flying arms to be exposed...
Almost every door slammer flip I can think of in the last 20 years (and I can think of a lot) has been the result of rolling the car over from the rapid weight transfer/distribution that comes with a hard turn or hard impact with the wall causing car to come off the ground (as in Flamholcs case), in which case its too late for roof flaps to help. The highly prepped track is so sticky that it also plays a big role in helping the car roll over.
Roof flaps mainly prevent the car from lifting off like a plane.
As far as recent crashes I can think of where roof flaps would have prevented a flip the only one that comes to mind is Lizzy Musi's Bristol crash. She still would have still crashed with the flaps but instead of going airborne over the wall with very little impact she would have nailed the left lane wall hard.
Outside of slowing them down by adding downforce or restricting performance, I don't see much they can do to change things besides lifting earlier, which sometimes even that wont save you.
We can all be happy the car builders make them so safe for the drivers.
Btw, along with window nets on the drivers window I think they really need to put nets above the drivers head in the roll cage roof area. In any crash with fast barrel rolls the roof bodywork almost always flies off leaving a large area for flying arms to be exposed...
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Luke Nieuwhof
Nitro Member
Are arm restraints mandated?
nitro
Nitro Member
I appreciate Mark's input due to the fact he has captured excellent images of many a top end incident, and nearly had a couple in his lap. He has a very valid point of when the car hits going forward or at an oblique angle going forward roof flaps will do nothing, I am talking about when the cars swap ends and the air gets under the spoiler, then roof flaps might stop those effects.
I noticed in Adam's crash his arm were completely outside of the car. As far as I know that arm restraints are not mandated in pro mods. Marks has a another good point of having a net or some sort of fabric containment device in the event of a violent roll over the arm stay inside the cage. Plus a better window net set up might be in order as well.
I can see both sides of the arm restrain argument. With so much going on inside the car those might be cumbersome. Or re-engineer the drivers area to allow the use of arm restraints.
I noticed in Adam's crash his arm were completely outside of the car. As far as I know that arm restraints are not mandated in pro mods. Marks has a another good point of having a net or some sort of fabric containment device in the event of a violent roll over the arm stay inside the cage. Plus a better window net set up might be in order as well.
I can see both sides of the arm restrain argument. With so much going on inside the car those might be cumbersome. Or re-engineer the drivers area to allow the use of arm restraints.
That's where Pro Mod was headed in 2003, no active rear suspension--- the swing arm chassis was an attempt as Pro Mods had kept making more and more power , the aero packages were somewhat different then
--- now to me it seems like they have went to a Pro Stock areo package with alot more HP----------
to me they need some side plates like the Alky Funnys to keep the air straight over the rear deck --
to begin with ---- the other thing is how many of the these guys buy a ride and have too few laps for experience sake ????
As delicate as the Pro Stockers are to drive --- what do you have with 2X the HP ?
--- now to me it seems like they have went to a Pro Stock areo package with alot more HP----------
to me they need some side plates like the Alky Funnys to keep the air straight over the rear deck --
to begin with ---- the other thing is how many of the these guys buy a ride and have too few laps for experience sake ????
As delicate as the Pro Stockers are to drive --- what do you have with 2X the HP ?
Justin@NRE
Nitro Member
They need more downforce on the front AND rear. You make the car even more unstable just by adding on the rear. I think with the added drag they wouldn't have to de-nut the motors so much to keep them from going too fast.
As for the drivers, MANY of them are driving over their heads, but a lot of it is also how quickly a Pro Mod can get ahead of the driver. I look at it like modern fighter jets. They are made purposefully unstable for ultimate maneuverability and fly nicely because a computer is in constant management keeping the plane under control. Turn off the computers and fly by hand, that's what Pro Mod drivers are dealing with. It may go straight and level for a while, but be ready for anything. Add in Auto-Shifters, converter/pump inertia along with tire inertia and all it takes is it getting a little stupid, you lift, it keeps going.
Good Blog...
As for the drivers, MANY of them are driving over their heads, but a lot of it is also how quickly a Pro Mod can get ahead of the driver. I look at it like modern fighter jets. They are made purposefully unstable for ultimate maneuverability and fly nicely because a computer is in constant management keeping the plane under control. Turn off the computers and fly by hand, that's what Pro Mod drivers are dealing with. It may go straight and level for a while, but be ready for anything. Add in Auto-Shifters, converter/pump inertia along with tire inertia and all it takes is it getting a little stupid, you lift, it keeps going.
Good Blog...
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