Indy final: Richardson vs Coan in comp (1 Viewer)

[stanman]

Sean,

Here's where the difference in the video vs. a still photo or high speed film comes into play...

... but .0047 is a whole lot less than a 60th of a second - a 60th is .0167 seconds, in fact. Scotty was at the bottom of the screen, Jason at the top, so a frame that shows them dead-even could easily represent a real-life situation where the far-lane car is actually ahead.

.0047 is 3.5 time less than .0167... so as the video scan is being processed, top to bottom, moving objects are still moving until they've been captured. So after Coan's car has already been captured in that "frame", Scotty's is still moving. So let's say that the difference between Coan's car being captured and Scotty's was something less than the .0167 seconds based on their proximity in the frame... Scotty's would have traveled the additional difference in that time between Coan's car being captured and his.

Stationary objects like the stripe, cones, and k-rail are just that, stationary... so as long as there isn't a lot of angle to the shot they will appear normal.

At least this is how I understand it.

 

[stanman]

And actually...

If you look at Chris' second capture,

Richardson VS. Coan at the stripe on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

It supports the idea that Scotty's bumper didn't break the beam. In that capture, it appears that Scotty's front tire is just at the stripe while Coan's nose is already past it.

 

[Chili]

Sean,

Here's where the difference in the video vs. a still photo or high speed film comes into play...



.0047 is 3.5 time less than .0167... so as the video scan is being processed, top to bottom, moving objects are still moving until they've been captured. So after Coan's car has already been captured in that "frame", Scotty's is still moving. So let's say that the difference between Coan's car being captured and Scotty's was something less than the .0167 seconds based on their proximity in the frame... Scotty's would have traveled the additional difference in that time between Coan's car being captured and his.

Stationary objects like the stripe, cones, and k-rail are just that, stationary... so as long as there isn't a lot of angle to the shot they will appear normal.

At least this is how I understand it.

If you look at the second picture you can see some of the distortion. The finish line should be a straight line but the it isn't. The finish line in Richardson lane is more to the "left" than Coan's. It makes Richardson car appear to be further down track than it actually is.

 

[Sean D, shondoo]

Sean,

Here's where the difference in the video vs. a still photo or high speed film comes into play...



.0047 is 3.5 time less than .0167... so as the video scan is being processed, top to bottom, moving objects are still moving until they've been captured. So after Coan's car has already been captured in that "frame", Scotty's is still moving. So let's say that the difference between Coan's car being captured and Scotty's was something less than the .0167 seconds based on their proximity in the frame... Scotty's would have traveled the additional difference in that time between Coan's car being captured and his.

Stationary objects like the stripe, cones, and k-rail are just that, stationary... so as long as there isn't a lot of angle to the shot they will appear normal.

At least this is how I understand it.

Thanks, Greg and Larry. I guess I just misunderstood the numbers the first time around. When you add it up that way, I can absolutely see how that could happen. Believe me when I say that I'm the last person other than Jason and Dave that wants to see this deal overturned. It's neat to see someone you know win the big one.

Sean D

 

[stanman]

Thanks, Greg and Larry. I guess I just misunderstood the numbers the first time around. When you add it up that way, I can absolutely see how that could happen. Believe me when I say that I'm the last person other than Jason and Dave that wants to see this deal overturned. It's neat to see someone you know win the big one.

Sean D

Yeah, but you got to feel Scotty's pain too. He definitely got there first but his bumper just didn't do it's job.

Plus, the rules for Street Roadster in Comp make this situation possible because they don't allow any type of "beam breaker".

 

[clock guy]

One thing to remember on the 13" is that is an estemate based on a mathmatical formula that uses exact numbers. The MPH is not an exact number, it is calculated on the travel time between 2 fixed points not the exact MPH at the finish. So droping off speed at finish changes things in that forumla. FNN posts that as an informational tidbit it is not a mesured number.

 

[stanman]

Jeff,

Thanks for the support and keep up the good work! Very few people realize the effort that you and Bob put in to make the system as fool proof as possible.

See you at Thanksgiving!?

 

[Sean D, shondoo]

Yeah, but you got to feel Scotty's pain too. He definitely got there first but his bumper just didn't do it's job.

Plus, the rules for Street Roadster in Comp make this situation possible because they don't allow any type of "beam breaker".

I absolutely feel his pain, Greg. He got the big one taken out from underneath him.

I understand the deal about the street roadster rules, but are you telling me that with the downforce being applied to the existing bodywork @ 160+mph that Scotty's body is higher than the finish line beam? I just can't believe that. Beam breaker or no beam breaker, I would think his body would've been more than low enough to trip his lane's beam, or am I out in left field?

Sean D

P.S. I want to second your thanks to Jeff and his gang on their diligence with the timing system.

 

[scotty]

I understand the deal about the street roadster rules, but are you telling me that with the downforce being applied to the existing bodywork @ 160+mph that Scotty's body is higher than the finish line beam? I just can't believe that. Beam breaker or no beam breaker, I would think his body would've been more than low enough to trip his lane's beam, or am I out in left field?

I know its hard to believe, but it is possible. Back when David Nickens was running comp he once ran an A/SR and it was FAST. At one point, he needed louvers put into the backsides of his front fenders. If I remember correctly, this was because the front end was becoming too light on the top end and causing handling problems. The front was becoming light because the beautifully sloped back fenders make great parachutes at 160+ mph and they were actually lifting the front end. If Vinny's car has the louvers this is all moot, but maybe that's what happened to Scotty.

Really an unfortunate situation and I feel for both sides on this one. It was a fantastic race and too close to call.

 

[Sully]

Now that I've convinced some of you that you can't always believe what the video frame shows, I'll have to admit that it appears that Richardson's bumper went over the beam and that the street roadsters need to have a different kind of beam blocker to make sure that doesn't happen. NHRA rules govern the front overhang, so nobody should get an unfair advantage by making sure the frontmost part of their car breaks the timing beam at the stripe. I'm not sure what the street roadsters are currently allowed do in terms of a beam blocker, but I think this instance calls for a review of that rule.

Sure would like to see the overhead helicopter video of this final! It was an extremely close finish.

 

[Sean D, shondoo]

I know its hard to believe, but it is possible. Back when David Nickens was running comp he once ran an A/SR and it was FAST. At one point, he needed louvers put into the backsides of his front fenders. If I remember correctly, this was because the front end was becoming too light on the top end and causing handling problems. The front was becoming light because the beautifully sloped back fenders make great parachutes at 160+ mph and they were actually lifting the front end. If Vinny's car has the louvers this is all moot, but maybe that's what happened to Scotty.

Really an unfortunate situation and I feel for both sides on this one. It was a fantastic race and too close to call.

Well, I certainly stand corrected. Thanks to Scott and Larry both for the information.

Sean D

 

[StockersRock]

As much as I believe this should be turned around, like most everyone else here, it's unfortunately not a PRO class. I'd be shocked to see NHRA actually do it.

 

[Keith Burgan]

As much as I believe this should be turned around, like most everyone else here, it's unfortunately not a PRO class. I'd be shocked to see NHRA actually do it.

Andy,
did you not read the posts explaining the situation with the video and the fact that Jeff and Art put a lot of time into running all of the numbers. It does not matter that Scotty's bumper was possibly ahead of Jason's nose at the line, he did not trip the beam first and therefore Jason won. As other street roadster competitors have found out in the past the rules tend to handicap them a little in that area. If he had a door car with 45" of overhang and the nose was high enough that the first thing that the beam saw was the wheel the result would have been the same. The bike deal was a different scenario as both vehicles were the same configuration and should have been on an even footing.

Roo

 

[Sean D, shondoo]

Andy,
did you not read the posts explaining the situation with the video and the fact that Jeff and Art put a lot of time into running all of the numbers. It does not matter that Scotty's bumper was possibly ahead of Jason's nose at the line, he did not trip the beam first and therefore Jason won. As other street roadster competitors have found out in the past the rules tend to handicap them a little in that area. If he had a door car with 45" of overhang and the nose was high enough that the first thing that the beam saw was the wheel the result would have been the same. The bike deal was a different scenario as both vehicles were the same configuration and should have been on an even footing.

Roo

With all of that being said, do any of you foresee the possibility of a rule addendum with regards to street roadsters? I realize many of you have said this has happened before, but this situation was certainly much more glaring, coupled with the fact that it happened on the grandest stage.

Sean D

 

[stanman]

Sean,

I see NHRA changing the rules for Street Roadster in Comp, allowing them put some type of "stripe taker" that is attached to the bumper.

 

[Professor Dave]

Vinnie Barone, owner of the car Richardson drove, posted a very classy response over on insidecompracing.com

www.insidecompracing.com - indy race

 

[Sean D, shondoo]

Vinnie Barone, owner of the car Richardson drove, posted a very classy response over on insidecompracing.com

www.insidecompracing.com - indy race

Thanks for the link, Dave. That was a very classy response and epitomizes the term "sportsmanship".

Sean D

 

[willy]

That is a class post by Vinnie, Dave.

What a great thread this is.