Harley Davidson exclusiveness (1 Viewer)

[dboxell]

The "Harleys" are allowed 160 CI, the inline 4s are allowed 101, that means that the "Harleys" have an engine that is almost 50% larger than the inlines.
Also the Vtwin configuration is 60 degrees as opposed to the 45deg Harley layout.

The V&H (Twin) bikes are allowed 4valve, the Buell only 2 valve.

The last "real" Harley was Jr Pippins and he gave up on it.

Horsepower per CI the inlines have it hands down. re. Karen Stoffer

 

[Chuck]

In looking at the last three races, these are the average numbers:
(.050 or worse is what I considered a bad light)

Arana - et - 6.968 rt - .046 1 red light, 2 bad lights - 7 runs

Arana Jr - et - 6.972 rt - .051 1 red light, 1 broke/lifted, 3 bad lights - 10 runs (I threw out the 11.152 from the broke/lifted run)

Hines - et - 7.014 rt - .040 1 red light, 2 bad lights - 12 runs

Krawiec - et - 7.020 rt - .038 0 red lights, 2 bad lights - 11 runs

Over the entire 3 events the Arana's have had a better average et and the HDs have had the better average rt, with fewer bad lights and red lights.

If you average the et over the same 7 runs that Hector Sr. made they are:

HA - 6.968
HA Jr. - 6.943
AH - 6.940
EK - 6.934

Jr and the Harleys are within .009 in average. Sr.'s average is skewed because his first round in Denver was .025 off of the others. If you throw that run out and average the same 6 runs for the 4 riders you get:

HA - 6.880
HA Jr. - 6.894
AH - 6.889
EK - 6.883

I'm not taking sides, just throwing some numbers out there to look at.

 

[dboxell]

Gary;
That is why they race on the track, not paper....

 

[Sean D, shondoo]

Sean, can I fix that for you????

It's a POOR joke...............

Amen, brother!

Sean D

 

[dboxell]

First Pass Mile High 2nd Pass 3rd Pass 4th Pass
ET MPH ET MPH ET MPH ET MPH ET AVG MPH AVG
Hector Arana Jr 7.249 183.67 7.238 184.57 7.249 184.47 7.254 184.57 7.248 184.320
Hector Arana 7.039 181.91 7.243 183.62 7.271 184.04 NT NT 7.184 183.190
Eddie Krawiec 7.323 183.42 7.314 183.00 7.298 183.00 7.298 182.70 7.308 183.030
Andrew Hines 7.326 183.52 7.290 183.52 7.283 183.52 7.314 182.08 7.303 183.160


First Pass Sonoma 2nd Pass 3rd Pass 4th Pass
ET MPH ET MPH ET MPH ET MPH
Hector Arana Jr 6.893 194.41 6.993 191.13 6.850 191.73 6.857 194.35 6.898 192.905
Hector Arana 6.879 194.86 6.939 191.65 6.981 194.30 7.812 156.39 7.153 184.300
Eddie Krawiec 6.801 198.35 6.831 195.87 6.886 194.63 6.854 196.59 6.843 196.360
Andrew Hines 6.848 195.28 6.874 193.90 6.851 194.63 6.867 194.80 6.860 194.653

Difference between Brandmere and Sonoma
Hector Arana Jr 0.356 10.740 0.245 6.560 0.399 7.260 0.397 9.780 0.349 8.585
Hector Arana 0.160 12.950 0.304 8.030 0.290 10.260 #VALUE! #VALUE! 0.251 10.413
Eddie Krawiec 0.522 14.930 0.483 12.870 0.412 11.630 0.444 13.890 0.465 13.330
Andrew Hines 0.478 11.760 0.416 10.380 0.432 11.110 0.447 12.720 0.443 11.493

 

[Rajunz]

When you go back and look at race stats, one thing really stands out. The Harley's performance numbers always seem to pick up by the end of the day on Sunday, when compared to their qualifying numbers. (30 lb sack on Friday, 15 lb sack on Sunday.) Yeah the Hecters are running competitive numbers, but they are maxing out their combinations to do it, and blowing through some parts, and they can't quite run with them on the big end. The Harleys seem to be able to turn it up at will.

 

[nick name]

It's almost a shame that the Aranas are running so well, as it provides some sort of lame justification for those who are trying rationalize the rules problem.

The thing is, in a normal world Hector Arana would have joined Byron Hines and George Bryce as a titan in Pro Stock Bike horsepower. The other shame of the present situation is that his achievements are hard to see and he's not getting the credit for being SO good since the HD bikes can upstage him at will.

I respect all of those three racers. Hines has always, over very many years, proven that he can make championship horsepower. He's above all a good businessman so he's busy playing the cards he's been dealt.

Just like the years past when everyone was racing under the same rules, George would be right there with him. One may gain an edge for a season or so, and then the other finds some horsepower and turns the tables.

For Hector to join the very few at the top is amazing. At this point, he's found more horsepower than George and you don't see that happen very often.

Like Bryce so correctly said, third place is the new number one. Under "real" rules, Hector is kicking everyone's butt. But it's not because of parity, it's because Arana has made that once in a lifetime leap where it all comes together and you pull away from the field.

Except, due to the unobtainable, run whatever you want Screaming Eagles most fans can't see what has happened. It's a tremendous shame.

 

[TooTall999]

I stand by the Harley sandbagging theory; they're only using enough of the V-rod potential to win and not make it look like total domination. I'm sure V&H have tune ups in the laptop to go just as fast as they need to. What's happened in this class is a travesty...

 

[dboxell]

Average pick ups from Brandmere to $Sonoma

Hector Jr -0.349 et +8.545 mph
Hector -0.251et + 10.413 mph
Eddie Krawiec -0.465 et +13.330 mph
Andrew Hines -0.443et +11.493mph

Seems like the V&H bikes like low altitude more than the Aranas' Buells

 

[Nick Name]

The "Harleys" are allowed 160 CI, the inline 4s are allowed 101, that means that the "Harleys" have an engine that is almost 50% larger than the inlines.
Also the Vtwin configuration is 60 degrees as opposed to the 45deg Harley layout.

The V&H (Twin) bikes are allowed 4valve, the Buell only 2 valve.

The last "real" Harley was Jr Pippins and he gave up on it.

Horsepower per CI the inlines have it hands down. re. Karen Stoffer

I could be wrong, but I don't believe any real Harley® has ever run in the 7s on gasoline.

 

[timebombkal]

They should take the class and put it as a sportsman class. Let them run on a index.

 

[dboxell]

Jay,
The AHDRA Pro stock bikes have been in the 7s and I believe Jr has been in the 7s in NHRA with his bike (45 degree)

 

[e]

Didn't Hector mention something about having to run those engines on the ragged edge just to be where they are.....And because of that they just didn't have the consistency that they need??.....No excuses of course and they are doing the very best they can................................e

 

[dboxell]

They are running on the razors edge, that is why they are hurting parts on the Bells and the Zuks.

 

[Nick Name]

Jay,
The AHDRA Pro stock bikes have been in the 7s and I believe Jr has been in the 7s in NHRA with his bike (45 degree)

Those motors are all aftermarket aren't they? Delktron etc lower ends, S&S cylinders, and a slew of heads available.

I remember when Jim McClure set the record of 7.43 in his fueler, I asked him what Harley® parts it had in it, and he stated "oil pump gear". Then he said "you can't run a 7 sec ET on a Harley® lower end.

Maybe the later twin cam motors can handle it.

 

[my friends call me Zappy]

They should take the class and put it as a sportsman class. Let them run on a index.

YES, YES, and YES!!!

 

[Chuck]

Gary;
That is why they race on the track, not paper....

I realize that, I was just pointing out that the Arana's avreage performance is competitive to the Harley's based on runs in the same conditions. Whether the Buells are hurting parts on every run and the Harleys are cruising is irrelevant to my post. Also, in response to the notion that Matt is "tuning" the Harleys to run just quick enough to beat the Buells, how many of you have ever tried to dial a car/bike to the hundredth of a second on a wide open run? I have, and it's not as easy as just saying "I'm going to run a 9.910" and then go do it. You can have data running out your butt, but there are always variables that you can't predict (i.e. cloud cover, wind gusts, oil downs).

I agree that the Harley should be made available to whom ever wants, and can afford, to run one. It looks as if the NHRA brass are Harley-Davidson's ho's and are doing what they are told to keep the money coming in. It's not right, but what are you going to do? All bikes other than the Harley's boycott a race? What does that do to the NHRA? Nothing!! The pro classes don't pay any kind of entry fee so there will be no income loss, just less teams for them to park. The teams that sit out are the ones that get hurt, along with their fans and sponsors. It's not a good situation for anyone involved, other than the ones getting the big checks from Harley that is. It's not even a good situation for Andrew and Eddie, they are being ridiculed and accused of cheating just because they are playing within the rules they are given. People are saying that their wins and championships are tainted. How many of you, if given the same opportunity, would look NHRA and Harley in the eyes and say "this is unfair to my competition, I refuse to race under these rules"? I would bet absolutely none of you would. Having a chance to win a Wally and a Championship would make your guilty conscience disappear pretty quickly. Just saying!

 

[TooTall999]

I realize that, I was just pointing out that the Arana's avreage performance is competitive to the Harley's based on runs in the same conditions. Whether the Buells are hurting parts on every run and the Harleys are cruising is irrelevant to my post. Also, in response to the notion that Matt is "tuning" the Harleys to run just quick enough to beat the Buells, how many of you have ever tried to dial a car/bike to the hundredth of a second on a wide open run? I have, and it's not as easy as just saying "I'm going to run a 9.910" and then go do it. You can have data running out your butt, but there are always variables that you can't predict (i.e. cloud cover, wind gusts, oil downs).

I agree that the Harley should be made available to whom ever wants, and can afford, to run one. It looks as if the NHRA brass are Harley-Davidson's ho's and are doing what they are told to keep the money coming in. It's not right, but what are you going to do? All bikes other than the Harley's boycott a race? What does that do to the NHRA? Nothing!! The pro classes don't pay any kind of entry fee so there will be no income loss, just less teams for them to park. The teams that sit out are the ones that get hurt, along with their fans and sponsors. It's not a good situation for anyone involved, other than the ones getting the big checks from Harley that is. It's not even a good situation for Andrew and Eddie, they are being ridiculed and accused of cheating just because they are playing within the rules they are given. People are saying that their wins and championships are tainted. How many of you, if given the same opportunity, would look NHRA and Harley in the eyes and say "this is unfair to my competition, I refuse to race under these rules"? I would bet absolutely none of you would. Having a chance to win a Wally and a Championship would make your guilty conscience disappear pretty quickly. Just saying!

I agree that the blame shouldn't be blamed on Eddie or Andrew. The blame rests on Harley and the NHRA for letting this farce continue. I don't understand why they don't make the V-rod motors and bodies available to everyone. Let all the V-twin guys have the same engines and then level the playing field with the Suzukis. Harley would get even more representation, and it would look better for them.

 

[sdwarf36]

Jeez Gary-tangible numbers + common sense-you're gonna kill this thread.
And I agree with all of it. The Hector's are making it hard ON PAPER to see any issue. Or more importiantly-making it easier for justification to do nothing.
The only race HD totally stunk up was Gainsville.

 

[Rajunz]

.......The thing is, in a normal world Hector Arana would have joined Byron Hines and George Bryce as a titan in Pro Stock Bike horsepower. The other shame of the present situation is that his achievements are hard to see and he's not getting the credit for being SO good since the HD bikes can upstage him at will........

Hector has credited Larry Morgan's Pro Stock engine building for his horsepower numbers. Once Larry Morgan started building his heads with Pro Stock technology, the horsepower came.

Hector Arana is a first-time NHRA champ at 51 - ESPN