Enders to sit 2/3 of the Western Swing
- Thread starter Paul
- Start date
Percboy
Nitro Member
13-14 entries on The Swing PS entry lists .
Maybe 8 competitive cars.
Sad... what happen to the days of 30+ cars?
http://www.nhra.net/results97/usnationals/prostock.html#friA1
Maybe 8 competitive cars.
Sad... what happen to the days of 30+ cars?
http://www.nhra.net/results97/usnationals/prostock.html#friA1
vegasnitro
Nitro Member
Comparing Western Swing races to the US Nationals is just unfair. Everyone circles Indy on their calendar, and it is centrally located and relatively easy for everyone to get to. Comparing apples to apples, there were still 28 Pro Stockers at Denver in your chosen year of '97. Still quite a difference.
http://www.nhra.net/results97/milehigh/prostock.html
stitcherbob
Nitro Member
Wait maybe the NHRA did something right. Perhaps the countdown wasn't invented to mess up a true season championship. Maybe it was started as a means to help teams save money. Since all of the races don't really matter anymore, many teams really don't have to go to all the regular season races anymore and that saves money for them. Team Enders seems to be the first to figure this out. We've complained for so long about the rising cost and here NHRA was being all sneaky in helping teams outs.
-sorry it appears my sarcasm on/off switch is broken today
this way racers such as Terry Haddock and Luigi Novelli can stay home all season and save tons of dough
my sarcasm switch is on the fritz as well
Elite's engine builder considers Denver sort of his home track .... sure he knows how to make HP there (I know I don't, I've vowed to never race there again .... I'd need an engine that makes 30% more horsepower just for that track! Tried and failed too many times, and pride myself into being able to run at many different tracks).
yoda
Nitro Member
NHRA should be proud
Well, I bet the marketing department is looking for a high ledge about now... Could you imagine if Ant and Ashley decided to do the same thing? Tracks must be pissed off too....
I think the whole attraction Female drivers brought the sport in the 90's was great, but after (I lost count!) all the female drivers this sport has seen, I think that novelty has worn off! ITs a been there, done that scenario!
StockersRock
Nitro Member
Yes.
They'd be wise to get off the high ledge and get on the phones - tracks too, for that matter. It's not secret that tracks and sanctioning bodies in all forms of racing forever have gone extra miles to get their marketable stars on the property and in the show. I have to wonder if there is just such an effort here.
stanzig44
Nitro Member
Out of curiosity to compare apples to apples I looked at the final qualifying numbers for the last 16 years for the Western Swing (data from Drag Race Central).
Thought this might interest some.
Denver--Sonoma--Seattle
1998 31--28--27
1999 27--28--27
2000 25--27--26
2001 25--23--23
2002 29--30--32
2003 27--26--27
2004 23--24--24
2005 20--20--20
2006 21--23--22
2007 19--21--20
2008 20--20--17
2009 16--19--16
2010 20--19--17
2011 16--16--15
2012 16--17--16
2013 15--15--16
Thought this might interest some.
Denver--Sonoma--Seattle
1998 31--28--27
1999 27--28--27
2000 25--27--26
2001 25--23--23
2002 29--30--32
2003 27--26--27
2004 23--24--24
2005 20--20--20
2006 21--23--22
2007 19--21--20
2008 20--20--17
2009 16--19--16
2010 20--19--17
2011 16--16--15
2012 16--17--16
2013 15--15--16
SoCal Racer
Nitro Member
Dang it Stan, don't go refuting perceptions with facts!
Sad that entries have dropped to barely full or short fields.
As far as Erica sitting a couple out... I completely understand, and it's probably a safe/strategic/economic decision. Unfortunately the fans are the losers. It is a bit surprising that more teams don't do this since the Countdown negates the need for attending every race as long as you're in the top 10, but many are contractually bound to attending all of the races. I'm sure NHRA didn't foresee this eventuality when they implemented the countdown; but they've never been known for foresight....
Sad that entries have dropped to barely full or short fields.
As far as Erica sitting a couple out... I completely understand, and it's probably a safe/strategic/economic decision. Unfortunately the fans are the losers. It is a bit surprising that more teams don't do this since the Countdown negates the need for attending every race as long as you're in the top 10, but many are contractually bound to attending all of the races. I'm sure NHRA didn't foresee this eventuality when they implemented the countdown; but they've never been known for foresight....
my friends call me Zappy
Nitro Member
[QUOTE="David Parsons, post: 331281, member: 5919"Sad that entries have dropped to barely full or short fields.
. I'm sure NHRA didn't foresee this eventuality when they implemented the countdown; ....[/QUOTE]
Perhaps not, but now that they see it, they still do nothing to correct it.
Please go back to a true season champ, make EVERY race count.
. I'm sure NHRA didn't foresee this eventuality when they implemented the countdown; ....[/QUOTE]
Perhaps not, but now that they see it, they still do nothing to correct it.
Please go back to a true season champ, make EVERY race count.
70AARCuda
Nitro Member
rckymtn3
Nitro Member
Just spit-balling here.
Not sure, but some car count numbers have to be treated as anomalies. My best guess is that towards the end of the 90's, the NHRA schedule had ramped up to what? 25-26 National events? I'm not even sure what year it reached it's highest number of races, and how many that was, but it was TOO many. Then perhaps some teams started selling off, so some people that always wanted to try pro stock probably bought-in at lowered "used" prices, so there was a slight blip upwards for a few years?
Then the countdown was implemented when? 2007? I forget.
Recession hit in 2008 but better funded companies had enough bean counters to see the writing on the wall, so around 2006/2007 big corporations probably tapered back on contracts for teams?
I don't follow pro stock too closely since the 80's, but perhaps there was more than a few rule changes in there as well.
But there IS a clear trend in all pro categories, and instead of giving us mind-numbing ridiculous statistics about who raced who 7 years ago at this race the last time there was a full moon, the NHRA could actually have some real statistical analysis of their choices made versus the impact on the racers AND the fans. But nah. That would be science, and that cost money, plus, that means they would have to actually discuss stuff at the board meetings besides which golf resort they were going to.
good question.
vegasnitro
Nitro Member
This is a very good point, and it drives almost every stick and ball sport front offices now. The most famous example is obviously "Moneyball", but the Tampa Bay Rays owners put out an fantastic book called "The Extra 2%". The GM of the Houston Rockets, Daryl Morey, has developed many proprietary processes and statistics that have kept them in contention. Regression/Mean Analysis is not just a fad, it is the way of the now and will be even more important in the future. There has to be some way some stat nerd can correlate car counts, tickets sold, payouts, TV time, number of events etc. etc. into a useful tool for analysis of NHRA in a meaningful/enlightening way.
The problem is, when NHRA makes a big move, like the Countdown, Top 12 Friday night qualifying, 1000ft., etc. they seem to never evaluate if it was a good move, or is still a good move, and it may as well be carved in stone. In this day and age, to run a business, you have to continually be analyzing moves made, and thinking ahead.
PJ, I'll take a shot at answering your question of what changed. I guess my answer could be applied to all of drag racing and not just Pro Stock. I think it's because the stakes/bar/ante was raised. To help get my point across here is an analogy using martial arts and street fighting. In my martial arts training we always talk about avoiding street fights at all costs. The main reason being, you never know how far your opponent is willing to go and how high the stakes will get raised. If you start beating him up, to try and get the win, he might pull out a knife or some other weapon. If you pull a weapon or find a weapon to even things up, just like that the stakes have been raised. If you both have small weapons and you're still winning the fight, he might pull a gun. Again, now the fight has escalated to a whole new level. How does this relate to drag racing? Let me explain.
There are 3 basic keys to being successful in drag racing. 1., hard work 2., knowledge and 3., money (not necessarily in that order). As drag racing has evolved, racers continue to raise the stakes in 1 or all 3 of these basic premises. Either working harder than their opponents, gaining more knowledge than their opponents, or out spending their opponents. Racers who do all 3 at the same time are usually the ones who become champions. What happened between 2003 and 2007 where you can see a big drop off?
2003 27--26--27
2007 19--21--20
KB racing, the Summit team happened. A 2 car team, with vast knowledge (Anderson worked with and learned from Warren and Kurt Johnson for years, Line with all his NASCAR experience, etc.), hard working, and some of the deepest pockets in Pro Stock.
2003 Pro Stock Champion - Greg Anderson
2004 Pro Stock Champion - Greg Anderson
2005 Pro Stock Champion - Greg Anderson
2006 Pro Stock Champion - Jason Line
The KB team raised the stakes to a level never seen before. Every team in Pro Stock had knives and KB racing came to the track with guns. Now almost every Pro Stock team has an in house engine program that has guys working 'round the clock trying to find 1 horsepower here, 2 horsepower there, etc. outside of the crew that travels to the races. Warren and Kurt Johnson have the knowledge and work hard but they don't have the money/resources to compete at the level that it has been raised to. Jim Cunningham on the other hand, literally won the lottery and decided to go Pro Stock racing. Just living the dream, he has the money but not the knowledge and I'm sure since he's retired, he's not looking to work 18 hours a day to be successful.
Don't take this as I'm blaming KB racing for the low car counts in Pro Stock. I'm merely pointing out that the bar had been raised by them. If it wouldn't have been them, then someone else would have. The same thing has happened in the other classes as well. Take a look at the guy/team who won the most Funny Car championships from say 1990 to 2004. This team raised the stakes to unheard of levels. Multiple crew chiefs, 2 car teams, 3 car teams, 4 car teams, building some parts in house, now building all parts including chassis in house, etc. You pretty much can't win championships in nitro racing anymore unless you have a huge shop/warehouse located in Brownsburg, Indiana!
Again, I'm not blaming, just merely pointing out.
There are 3 basic keys to being successful in drag racing. 1., hard work 2., knowledge and 3., money (not necessarily in that order). As drag racing has evolved, racers continue to raise the stakes in 1 or all 3 of these basic premises. Either working harder than their opponents, gaining more knowledge than their opponents, or out spending their opponents. Racers who do all 3 at the same time are usually the ones who become champions. What happened between 2003 and 2007 where you can see a big drop off?
2003 27--26--27
2007 19--21--20
KB racing, the Summit team happened. A 2 car team, with vast knowledge (Anderson worked with and learned from Warren and Kurt Johnson for years, Line with all his NASCAR experience, etc.), hard working, and some of the deepest pockets in Pro Stock.
2003 Pro Stock Champion - Greg Anderson
2004 Pro Stock Champion - Greg Anderson
2005 Pro Stock Champion - Greg Anderson
2006 Pro Stock Champion - Jason Line
The KB team raised the stakes to a level never seen before. Every team in Pro Stock had knives and KB racing came to the track with guns. Now almost every Pro Stock team has an in house engine program that has guys working 'round the clock trying to find 1 horsepower here, 2 horsepower there, etc. outside of the crew that travels to the races. Warren and Kurt Johnson have the knowledge and work hard but they don't have the money/resources to compete at the level that it has been raised to. Jim Cunningham on the other hand, literally won the lottery and decided to go Pro Stock racing. Just living the dream, he has the money but not the knowledge and I'm sure since he's retired, he's not looking to work 18 hours a day to be successful.
Don't take this as I'm blaming KB racing for the low car counts in Pro Stock. I'm merely pointing out that the bar had been raised by them. If it wouldn't have been them, then someone else would have. The same thing has happened in the other classes as well. Take a look at the guy/team who won the most Funny Car championships from say 1990 to 2004. This team raised the stakes to unheard of levels. Multiple crew chiefs, 2 car teams, 3 car teams, 4 car teams, building some parts in house, now building all parts including chassis in house, etc. You pretty much can't win championships in nitro racing anymore unless you have a huge shop/warehouse located in Brownsburg, Indiana!
Again, I'm not blaming, just merely pointing out.Similar threads
