When Pro Stock Got Expensive...

[ironpony]

also AJ and Jeggie mixed in there. My problem is the 2 models 1 dodge 1 gm we need more variety.
each year some one runs better, they are usually working harder.

 

[Sean D, shondoo]

My problem is the 2 models 1 dodge 1 gm we need more variety.

Agreed, Ken. It sure has gotten stale with very few Mopars that are a factor on race day, along with the lone Ford that has virtually no chance at all.

With Mopar jumping in deep with the Drag Pak stuff, I can't help but wonder how hard Ford will go after it (Maybe they already do, I don't know....). I haven't followed those classes too close, but I think I'm going to pay a bit more attention to how this develops. They sure look like a lot of fun to drive.

Sean D

 

[camaro]

They have only won 3 out of the last 10 Championships, Jason (2011, 2016) and Greg (2010). Jeggie has won 3 himself in that same time frame. Greg went almost THREE YEARS without winning a race not long ago (ETown 2012 - Gainesville 2015). I know they dominated the first half of this season and were competitive the rest of the season, but there just isn't the data to back up your claims.

if you've been following this forum for any period of time u would know this guy (Auzene) is the 'alpha dog' as far as 'dislike' for Greg Anderson. It seems like he has some sort of personal vendetta against greg that goes beyond racing. without even checking, I believe 90% of his post are degrading and slamming Anderson with little regard for facts and your response describes one example.

 

[Justin@NRE]

Agreed, Ken. It sure has gotten stale with very few Mopars that are a factor on race day, along with the lone Ford that has virtually no chance at all.

With Mopar jumping in deep with the Drag Pak stuff, I can't help but wonder how hard Ford will go after it (Maybe they already do, I don't know....). I haven't followed those classes too close, but I think I'm going to pay a bit more attention to how this develops. They sure look like a lot of fun to drive.

Sean D

Ford HAS been hard after it since the release of the modern Cobra Jet. What little money they put into drag racing, they've taken it all and put it into the Cobra Jet classes. When they first started rolling out, I remember watching a few of them easily outrunning the SS/AH "Kings of SS", then watching them evolve into a few dropping laps well into the 7's. Any factory engineering support has gone straight to the Cobra Jets. Remember, the base CJ engine is something you can walk into any Ford dealership/distributor and order. For under $30K, you can buy an 8-9 second engine package that is insanely reliable for drag racing, back when they first released they used to come with a 3 year warranty too. lol.

If you were Ford, why would you even look at any other classes that don't use a single part you have on the shelf or sell to the public?

 

[Huge]

All of this pro stock talk is really making me miss pro stock trucks. Bring them back and allow any manufacture with rear wheel drive.

 

[Randy]

Just some ramblings from an old guy...

Pro stock has never been "affordable" and it's always been dominated by a couple of people. The very first couple of years it was a contest to see if Bill Jenkins, Ronnie Sox or Dyno Don was going to win. The rest had very pretty cars that looked neat but unless one of these three screwed up it was their's. Then came Bob Glidden who took on the hitters, guys like Dyno Don aged out, and later a new crop dominated. Seems like nothing has changed.

I remember back in the 1970's when Air Flow Research was taking Chevy cast aluminum heads and making raised "D" port heads out of them which was the latest and greatest in Pro Stock. They welded up the exhaust ports in stock Chevy heads, raised them, remachined them and had to do all the porting by hand. Tons of hours in a set of heads. No CNC porting back then so the guy holding the cutters was critical. If I remember correctly, when you could buy a nice street car for under $6,000 a pair of flowed D port heads from AFR were $10,000. A nice house wasn't much more than a couple sets of heads.

In the mid 1970's I contacted the Yuill Bro's about buying their pro stock Monza roller advertised for $10K in National Dragster. Jeff Rackowitz was running an ex pro stock Vega in bracket one so I thought about it too before ordering my altered. That was a lot of money for something used without a drive train, air conditioning or an 8 track tape deck.

In 1974 I helped Greg Oliver do the assembly of John and Betty Millwee's 1970's Camaro Pro Stocker after we picked it up from Ron Butler's. I remember them spending $40,000 to build that car which at the time was considered pretty reasonable for a pro stocker. Beautiful car that went nowhere. They ordered the car after the turn key 1972 'Cuda pro stocker they bought from Sox and Martin crashed, killing driver Geno Redd in a testing accident on November 22, 1971, at OCIR. They tell me the roll cage that was welded to the acid dipped sheet metal floor punched through the floor, killing him. There's more info here if you scroll down. http://dragstripdeaths.webs.com/197074.htm

This was the Millwee Camaro after Jack Manchester took it over. I remember watching Jack do a dry hop up to the starting line after backing up from a burn out, but he forgot to take it out of reverse. He almost hit the next car in line behind him, which I believe was Mark Yuill.

Just a little side note since I mentioned Ron Butler and we are talking pro stock. Bill Bagshaw ran pro stock for a number of years. I'm not sure which car this came of of, but the scoop and carb plate I ran on my altered back in the late 1970's and early 1980's was built by Ron Butler for Bill Bagshaw and was later cut off the hood of his car. Bill sold it to S&M Tire's Tim Hall to run on his A/Dragster and later sold it to me when he went for a short stint in TAD. And for some sentimental reason I still have it after all these years.

You can almost see the Ron Butler plate under the scoop in this Steve Reyes' photo taken in 1980 for Popular Hot Rodding.

 

[Jeff]

Randy, Great post! Too bad everyone wants to remember something other than the reality of their heyday.

Things today are far from perfect (all Camaro's in pro stock being the biggest issue to me), but yesterday was far from perfect too. All motorsports are eventually somewhat dominated by your ability and willingness to spend ... guys try that on the golf course too, but that industry is now discovering that people have wised up that the next greatest club/ball/etc. is not going to knock off many strokes.

 

[Randy]

Randy, Great post! Too bad everyone wants to remember something other than the reality of their heyday.

Things today are far from perfect (all Camaro's in pro stock being the biggest issue to me), but yesterday was far from perfect too. All motorsports are eventually somewhat dominated by your ability and willingness to spend ... guys try that on the golf course too, but that industry is now discovering that people have wised up that the next greatest club/ball/etc. is not going to knock off many strokes.

Just like anything that requires talent, you get a lot of people showing up willing to throw everything they have at it and still end up in the middle somewhere. I can only speak from my experience in TA/FC, but I can tell you there are more people throwing money at it than the winner's circle indicates. And I think the same can be said for pro stock. I bet Greg Anderson could jump in any number of cars and run quicker than the guy that got out of it.

For example, I had (I think) a total of 9 different drivers including me in my car. It was a 5.60-5.70 car. And without making any real significant changes, a guy named Marc White gets in it and run mid 5.50's the second time we take it out. That was 13 years ago (2004 Winternationals). He proceeded to run 5.50's at 3 out of the 5 national events we ran that year, and the fourth event he ran a 5.600. Then I put other people in it and it's back to 5.60's and 5.70's even after upgrading to better stuff. In 2008 I put Daniel Oliver in it for just 8 National Events and it's back on top running 5.50's, we win two of the eight national events he entered, runner upped the third and qualified number one with him at Las Vegas, April 2010, where the tech officials came over and did a cavity search on my car after someone accused us of cheating. Then I put guy number 10 in my car and it's back to 5.60's and 5.70's. First round the last time out with him he was on a solid 5.50's run and he thought the 1,000' cone was the finish line so he shut it off, losing with a 5.64 at 240. Then they look at me likes it's my fault he never ran 5.50's. I had one guy upset at me, claiming I detuned the car for him. I took him in the trailer and spilled the beans on the tune up, and I showed him the Racepak screen on the computer comparing him by overlaying his runs with Marc White's runs. Marc was like a computer hitting the shift points, launch RPM and foot swap timing (which equals wheel speed), etc., compared to his short shifts and erratic launch RPMs.

All that to say, the slower pro stock cars with owner's leasing million dollar engines who think the engine supplier is screwing them need to look deeper into their program. Probably the same thing for the guys who buy engines from V&H in PSB. I remember one of Brad Anderson's employees coming into my trailer after Marc ripped off his second mid 5.50 in a row at the 2004 Winternationals. He said "You're still running that old set of Brad 5 heads with the 16 spark plug holes and the pushrod tubes sticking into the intake ports, aren't you." I didn't have the latest Brad 6 stuff that fixed all that. I said "Yep, and I even have steel plugs screwed in the extra eight spark plug holes." He said "That's what I told Brad. Brad has guys accusing him of not selling them the same stuff Manzo has. Now he's telling them to go look at your car. You have the older stuff on it and Marc is killing them." Marc ran a 5.56 followed by a 5.55 and was .02 quicker to 1,000' the next round when it broke a main fuel line fitting and blew up the next round at Pomona in 2,100 feet of air. This was when Manzo had the national record at 5.53 at Reading in mine shaft conditions with probably 100' corrected altitude.

Yea, I'm scratching Marc White's back. But like I said, at least in TA/FC, it's been my own experience that there are only a few that can actually drive them. The rest go for rides in them. Frank Manzo could have jumped in about anyone's fairly good running middle of the pack car and within a few runs made a winner out of it. I'd say that's true in pro stock, or any class for that matter. And just so it's easier to understand, I got out of mine in 1996 because I knew I was just going for rides in my TA/FC. If I wanted to win, I needed a driver that weighed 100 pounds less than I do and wasn't driving with their brain attached to their wallet that was mentally planted between the gas pedal and their foot like mine was. I wanted to win worse than I wanted to go for any more funny car "rides." It's too much work.

Here's a perfect example. A guy walks into a WalMart, goes to the toy department, picks up a $19 plastic NASCAR guitar, and starts playing a Stevie Ray Vaughan hit. Just like golf, it isn't the clubs that keep you down.

 

[none]

Just like in any other class Pro Stock got expensive the minute there was more than one car in existence. You do what you need to do to beat the other guy. It does take more than just money especially in that class. Total dedication to the race car is paramount.

Thanks for scratching the itch Randy. What he's not telling you are all the other things that make a car fast. Good parts that are assembled correctly every time and paying attention to detail. It's not ever close is going to be fine. Everything has to be as perfect as you can possible make it. I asked him to change the clutch pedal when I started driving for him. I think we moved it about a half inch or so. He never questioned why. He wanted to win just as bad as I did. A crew that can service the car the same way every time. I basically showed up at the races and tried my best to beat everyone else that was there. He was the one focusing on that car between races. He mentioned once before how much time we spent on the phone. We talked about every inch of that car and made sure we left nothing that was untouched. We ran great at the time and I think we could have been bad asses given a little more time but It wasn't to be. I still look back on it as one of the best friendships/cars I ever was involved with. How's that for a Bro fest.

 

[FABMAN]

Just like anything that requires talent, you get a lot of people showing up willing to throw everything they have at it and still end up in the middle somewhere. I can only speak from my experience in TA/FC, but I can tell you there are more people throwing money at it than the winner's circle indicates. And I think the same can be said for pro stock. I bet Greg Anderson could jump in any number of cars and run quicker than the guy that got out of it.

For example, I had (I think) a total of 9 different drivers including me in my car. It was a 5.60-5.70 car. And without making any real significant changes, a guy named Marc White gets in it and run mid 5.50's the second time we take it out. That was 13 years ago (2004 Winternationals). He proceeded to run 5.50's at 3 out of the 5 national events we ran that year, and the fourth event he ran a 5.600. Then I put other people in it and it's back to 5.60's and 5.70's even after upgrading to better stuff. In 2008 I put Daniel Oliver in it for just 8 National Events and it's back on top running 5.50's, we win two of the eight national events he entered, runner upped the third and qualified number one with him at Las Vegas, April 2010, where the tech officials came over and did a cavity search on my car after someone accused us of cheating. Then I put guy number 10 in my car and it's back to 5.60's and 5.70's. First round the last time out with him he was on a solid 5.50's run and he thought the 1,000' cone was the finish line so he shut it off, losing with a 5.64 at 240. Then they look at me likes it's my fault he never ran 5.50's. I had one guy upset at me, claiming I detuned the car for him. I took him in the trailer and spilled the beans on the tune up, and I showed him the Racepak screen on the computer comparing him by overlaying his runs with Marc White's runs. Marc was like a computer hitting the shift points, launch RPM and foot swap timing (which equals wheel speed), etc., compared to his short shifts and erratic launch RPMs.

All that to say, the slower pro stock cars with owner's leasing million dollar engines who think the engine supplier is screwing them need to look deeper into their program. Probably the same thing for the guys who buy engines from V&H in PSB. I remember one of Brad Anderson's employees coming into my trailer after Marc ripped off his second mid 5.50 in a row at the 2004 Winternationals. He said "You're still running that old set of Brad 5 heads with the 16 spark plug holes and the pushrod tubes sticking into the intake ports, aren't you." I didn't have the latest Brad 6 stuff that fixed all that. I said "Yep, and I even have steel plugs screwed in the extra eight spark plug holes." He said "That's what I told Brad. Brad has guys accusing him of not selling them the same stuff Manzo has. Now he's telling them to go look at your car. You have the older stuff on it and Marc is killing them." Marc ran a 5.56 followed by a 5.55 and was .02 quicker to 1,000' the next round when it broke a main fuel line fitting and blew up the next round at Pomona in 2,100 feet of air. This was when Manzo had the national record at 5.53 at Reading in mine shaft conditions with probably 100' corrected altitude.

Yea, I'm scratching Marc White's back. But like I said, at least in TA/FC, it's been my own experience that there are only a few that can actually drive them. The rest go for rides in them. Frank Manzo could have jumped in about anyone's fairly good running middle of the pack car and within a few runs made a winner out of it. I'd say that's true in pro stock, or any class for that matter. And just so it's easier to understand, I got out of mine in 1996 because I knew I was just going for rides in my TA/FC. If I wanted to win, I needed a driver that weighed 100 pounds less than I do and wasn't driving with their brain attached to their wallet that was mentally planted between the gas pedal and their foot like mine was. I wanted to win worse than I wanted to go for any more funny car "rides." It's too much work.

Here's a perfect example. A guy walks into a WalMart, goes to the toy department, picks up a $19 plastic NASCAR guitar, and starts playing a Stevie Ray Vaughan hit. Just like golf, it isn't the clubs that keep you down.

Thanks Randy for video, thats awesome guitar picking.

 

[none]

Now I am confused. I thought that was Marc on guitar and Randy singing..........

 

[ironpony]

Reminds me of when I shot competitive pistol, guys were always buying parts to make thier guns "faster". Then the guys that were fast would "help' them and shoot their guns for them, faster than they could. Truth was the gun was always faster then the shooter.

 

[stitcherbob]

Difference is, if the car is that out of tune it blow up real good!