Top Sportsman added to NHRA Events (1 Viewer)

[FABMAN]

I looked to see if this had been talked about and couldn't find anything so here we go. I guess you would consider me an old shoe in Drag Racing since there were no electronics at that time and it require your natural ability to drive the car. When they run super classes at the national events the stands empty , i leave too mainly because it's boring. Here you have some really nice cars with high horsepower motors and they leave the line then stall then leave again to the finish line, all done by computer. Is this Drag Racing, last weekend i went to our local track to watch a friend run his new truck for the first time and there we're some Top Sportsman cars there testing for upcoming division race. Now these cars were exciting to watch, they are heads up racing, other than line lock and transmission brake there were no other electronics to help them get down the track, it took the natural ability of driver to operate the car for a quarter mile run and they were fast. I know there is a huge entry in super series classes and thats great, but I would like to see Top Sportsman get a chance in national events. What's your thoughts?

 

[Toejam]

I looked to see if this had been talked about and couldn't find anything so here we go. I guess you would consider me an old shoe in Drag Racing since there were no electronics at that time and it require your natural ability to drive the car. When they run super classes at the national events the stands empty , i leave too mainly because it's boring. Here you have some really nice cars with high horsepower motors and they leave the line then stall then leave again to the finish line, all done by computer. Is this Drag Racing, last weekend i went to our local track to watch a friend run his new truck for the first time and there we're some Top Sportsman cars there testing for upcoming division race. Now these cars were exciting to watch, they are heads up racing, other than line lock and transmission brake there were no other electronics to help them get down the track, it took the natural ability of driver to operate the car for a quarter mile run and they were fast. I know there is a huge entry in super series classes and thats great, but I would like to see Top Sportsman get a chance in national events. What's your thoughts?

Jesse, I was looking for the link when you said "Top Sportsman added to NHRA events". I would love to see both TD and TS added, but unless their numbers get anywhere near as close to what SC or SG bring in, NHRA won't even consider it.

 

[stanman]

I know Joe is going to roll his eyes, but here it goes anyway...

...there were no electronics at that time and it require your natural ability to drive the car.

It takes every bit as much "natural ability" to drive a modern era car equipped with a delay box and throttle stop as it did back in your day. The delay box doesn't make you a better driver and a throttle stop doesn't make you a better tuner. They are simply tools that you must use in order to be competitive.

...mainly because it's boring.

That's your opinion. Many others share your opinion but you can't argue the popularity of the Super Classes with the competitors. They are the only "budget" minded classes still available to the average racer.

...there we're some Top Sportsman cars there testing for upcoming division race. Now these cars were exciting to watch, they are heads up racing, other than line lock and transmission brake there were no other electronics to help them get down the track,...

You might want to learn a bit more about the Top Dragster and Top Sportsman classes.

1. They are not heads up classes. They are bracket classes.
2. The rules allow the use of a delay box and starting line controller. And I bet you'd be hard pressed to find a competitive car that doesn't at least have a delay box.
3. Electronics do not "help them get down the track".

I sure wish I could find the source of these magical "electronics" some of you talk about!?!? Maybe I'd have a few more championships under my belt...

All this being said...

I agree that Top Dragster and Top Sportsman should be national event classes. But, I'll guarantee you the majority of fans would still leave the stands when they came up to run! They already do the same thing during Pro Stock. It's just a fact of national events that if it don't burn nitro the average fans doesn't give a damn!

 

[Earl]

Well – Being a “Bottom Bulb” racer with a car fast enough to run SC I am in total agreement with the throttle stop index racing statement. The NHRA in their twisted wisdom this year changed Pro from 7.50 to 10.0. It is my guess they are trying to force guys like me to move to throttle stop – index racing. To heck with them. At least we race full out for a 1000 feet or more, and there is a lot of driver ability in taking or not taking the stripe. Not that there is not in throttle stop racing. We also have to have a “feel” for what our light was. Much more than with a box controlling the delay, and reacting off the top bulb, or your opponent’s bulb. Thank goodness our local track is still doing 7.50 for Pro. As far as I am concerned, bottom bulb bracket racing is much more fun to watch than index racing. Especially when the cars are faster than 10.0. I also think it is more fun to drive one, and it takes more driver skill. I do understand the skill and knowledge it takes to run SC on a national level, but that is set up, not driver skill. Non throttle stop racing is one heck of a lot easier for the fans to understand. (I promise I won’t mention Comp Eliminator)

Earl

 

[stanman]

Well – Being a “Bottom Bulb” racer with a car fast enough to run SC I am in total agreement with the throttle stop index racing statement. The NHRA in their twisted wisdom this year changed Pro from 7.50 to 10.0. It is my guess they are trying to force guys like me to move to throttle stop – index racing. To heck with them. At least we race full out for a 1000 feet or more, and there is a lot of driver ability in taking or not taking the stripe. Not that there is not in throttle stop racing. We also have to have a “feel” for what our light was. Much more than with a box controlling the delay, and reacting off the top bulb, or your opponent’s bulb. Thank goodness our local track is still doing 7.50 for Pro. As far as I am concerned, bottom bulb bracket racing is much more fun to watch than index racing. Especially when the cars are faster than 10.0. I also think it is more fun to drive one, and it takes more driver skill. I do understand the skill and knowledge it takes to run SC on a national level, but that is set up, not driver skill. Non throttle stop racing is one heck of a lot easier for the fans to understand. (I promise I won’t mention Comp Eliminator)

Earl

This has got to be one of the funniest post I've ever read. I can't imagine the number of current or former Super Class racers that would die of laughter reading this drivel.

..."but that is set up, not driver skill."

That's freakin' priceless. What a comedian you are, Earl!

BTW... the change in the ET breaks was a safety concern of many of the drivers and tracks. The potential for a traumatic incident with the larger ET break was much greater and has been discussed for years.

 

[Draw 3D]

There has been talk about TD and TS at national events, but it's mostly by racers.

Personally, I prefer they don't go to national events, it is going to draw more cars, lower bump and more expense. I don't want to see an all 6 second field, that is very expensive.

It's already costing me quite a bit specially with the onslaught of rule changes this year.

 

[stanman]

There has been talk about TD and TS at national events, but it's mostly by racers.

Personally, I prefer they don't go to national events, it is going to draw more cars, lower bump and more expense. I don't want to see an all 6 second field, that is very expensive.

It's already costing me quite a bit specially with the onslaught of rule changes this year.

Bingo...

They'd have to go with an all run field with the only bump being the max ET limit... currently 7.99 in Dragster and 8.19 in Sportsman.

 

[Earl]

Greg,

I am well aware of your prowess when it comes to index racing. There is no doubt that your one of the best. However there are other opinions in the world and each and every one of them are valid from the person’s perspective offering the opinion.

So let’s examine the skill set. Reaction time, well a button is a button, either you have the skill or you don’t. I would invite you to do some non-delay bottom bulb testing and see just how good you are. You might be surprised. You could get lost or left on without your bump start button. Taking the stripe, well I would think you would have to admit that skill is transferable to either type of racing.

Car set up. No doubt you and all the other SC guys have forgotten more than I will ever know about setting up a SC car. But, one reason for bringing on your TS just after launch is to control wheel spin and be more consistent. Guess what, we don’t have that luxury. If we spin the wheels, or hook extra hard, then we have to figure it out in our head quickly. I really do feel there is more driver skill involved. Sorry if we do disagree, but that is what makes a good old fashion drag race. No hard feelings, or nothing personal from my end. Just good debate.

Reality makes for the best comedy Greg.

Earl

 

[PJ]

Super Gas used to be one of my favorite classes to watch. Can't stand it now. I understand the reason behind the stops and why sc/sg use them but from the fan in the stands it is boring as hell to watch two cars launch then go into coast mode.

I don't doubt the skill involve using either method. Being a slow bracket racer I've only raced that method.

 

[stanman]

Greg,

I am well aware of your prowess when it comes to index racing. There is no doubt that your one of the best. However there are other opinions in the world and each and every one of them are valid from the person’s perspective offering the opinion.

So let’s examine the skill set. Reaction time, well a button is a button, either you have the skill or you don’t. I would invite you to do some non-delay bottom bulb testing and see just how good you are. You might be surprised. You could get lost or left on without your bump start button. Taking the stripe, well I would think you would have to admit that skill is transferable to either type of racing.

Car set up. No doubt you and all the other SC guys have forgotten more than I will ever know about setting up a SC car. But, one reason for bringing on your TS just after launch is to control wheel spin and be more consistent. Guess what, we don’t have that luxury. If we spin the wheels, or hook extra hard, then we have to figure it out in our head quickly. I really do feel there is more driver skill involved. Sorry if we do disagree, but that is what makes a good old fashion drag race. No hard feelings, or nothing personal from my end. Just good debate.

Reality makes for the best comedy Greg.

Earl

Earl,

Thank you, but I humbly submit that I would not consider myself "one of the best". I do take great pride in my accomplishments as any racer would.

It may suprise you to know that I've been a fairly accomplished footbraker in the past. While I haven't been in a car recently, I did think that I had mistakenly entered a reaction time tournament last year that turned out to be random tree bottom bulb. I say mistakenly because I found my self in the final and lost 5-4 when I was -.003 red the last two lights.

I personally don't think bottom bulbing is any more difficult than top bulbing if your car is set up properly. The skills for reaction times transfer from one style to the other. It's all about proper staging, picking your spot, focus, and consistently doing the same thing each time.

Contrary to what you might think, throttle stops are not set-up to control wheel speed/tire spin. The consistency comes from the motor being at a certain RPM for a predetermined length of time. What most people don't realize is that almost any car is going to be more consistent off the stop than it is on. Your motor is much more susceptible to changes in weather on the stop because of the inefficiency of the motor at lower RPMs. And t-stop cars are prone to the same dead hook/tire spin conditions that non-throttle stop cars are. The only difference/advantage being is that in a t-stop car you can hit the override if you sping... a luxury a non-stopped car does not have.

And I love a good debate... especially with someone that doesn't take offense when a little sarcasm is thrown their way! LOL

 

[Earl]

Greg,

See, I told you that you knew more than I would ever know about TS racing. Some of the SC guys I hang out with would perhaps benefit from your paragraph about weather and low RPM's. I just might print it out and take it to our tune and test on the 19th... That should get a few of them going.

Nice to know you have some good grass roots foot break experance. My respect level rises. I do think that the "focus" you mention is harder for most people if they are forced to leave off the bottom bulb. I have challanged a few people in the past on the old test tree, and it does seem harder for people to be consistant from the bottom. (myself included) They have yet to take me up on the challange to give up a night of Super Pro racing and try their luck with us Pro guys. The excuse always is - I can't stand to wait on a 11 second car..... Right....

By the way. Good luck on the upcoming season.

Earl

 

[Toejam]

One of those Advanced ET classes has a 6.30 cut-off, is that Top Comp?

 

[stanman]

Joe,

The 6.30 cut-off is for chassis certification and not class specific. If you want to run quicker than 6.30 in Top Dragster you can... you just have to have a chassis that is certified for Alcohol.

 

[FABMAN]

I know Joe is going to roll his eyes, but here it goes anyway...

It takes every bit as much "natural ability" to drive a modern era car equipped with a delay box and throttle stop as it did back in your day. The delay box doesn't make you a better driver and a throttle stop doesn't make you a better tuner. They are simply tools that you must use in order to be competitive.

That's your opinion. Many others share your opinion but you can't argue the popularity of the Super Classes with the competitors. They are the only "budget" minded classes still available to the average racer.

You might want to learn a bit more about the Top Dragster and Top Sportsman classes.

1. They are not heads up classes. They are bracket classes.
2. The rules allow the use of a delay box and starting line controller. And I bet you'd be hard pressed to find a competitive car that doesn't at least have a delay box.
3. Electronics do not "help them get down the track".

I sure wish I could find the source of these magical "electronics" some of you talk about!?!? Maybe I'd have a few more championships under my belt...

All this being said...

I agree that Top Dragster and Top Sportsman should be national event classes. But, I'll guarantee you the majority of fans would still leave the stands when they came up to run! They already do the same thing during Pro Stock. It's just a fact of national events that if it don't burn nitro the average fans doesn't give a damn!

Greg, i didn't catch the electronic deal until i found the rules, but i think it would still be a exciting class to watch. I would much rather see it ran without electronics though.

 

[clwill]

This whole "the stands empty" thing is brought up all the time, sometimes with reference to Pro Stock, often with regard to some sportsman class or another. Today it's the Super classes that the OP chose to take the heat. And it seems impossible to mention the Super classes without condemning "the electronics that make it so easy -- just point and shoot". As Greg eloquently notes above that's largely a misconception.

The problem with all of these arguments isn't the racing, it's most peoples' understanding of the racing. I used to leave the stands when the Nitro cars were done. Then I started to understand Pro Stock, so I stayed for those. Then people explained the sportsman classes, and I stayed to watch several of the Comp classes. Now that we're racing an S/C car and I know the details there, OMG, I can't find two seconds to grab a beer and use the john

If NHRA, with all that time to kill on the huge "Motel 6 Vision", invested in a half-dozen educational videos that explained each of these classes to the average fan, I bet the stands wouldn't empty. But then -- the $7 beer and $10 hot dog guy would complain...

 

[merc49]

I'm just a lowly spectator and all I know is what I like. If TS came to an event near me my butt would be in a seat, and it'd stay there until the last pair of these bratty hot rods made their runs.

 

[FABMAN]

This whole "the stands empty" thing is brought up all the time, sometimes with reference to Pro Stock, often with regard to some sportsman class or another. Today it's the Super classes that the OP chose to take the heat. And it seems impossible to mention the Super classes without condemning "the electronics that make it so easy -- just point and shoot". As Greg eloquently notes above that's largely a misconception.

The problem with all of these arguments isn't the racing, it's most peoples' understanding of the racing. I used to leave the stands when the Nitro cars were done. Then I started to understand Pro Stock, so I stayed for those. Then people explained the sportsman classes, and I stayed to watch several of the Comp classes. Now that we're racing an S/C car and I know the details there, OMG, I can't find two seconds to grab a beer and use the john

If NHRA, with all that time to kill on the huge "Motel 6 Vision", invested in a half-dozen educational videos that explained each of these classes to the average fan, I bet the stands wouldn't empty. But then -- the $7 beer and $10 hot dog guy would complain...

Chris, i didn't start this thread to complain, i was running Super Gas when class first started and it was a lot of fun heads up racing, but my driving career ended do to a freak accident so i never got into the electronics. After seeing these Top Sportsman cars run in person it really got my excitement up for going to track to watch them. This was first time i have been to the track in 15 years. Still doing fabricating and watching on TV but after watching last weekend i will be going a lot more.

 

[Draw 3D]

One of those Advanced ET classes has a 6.30 cut-off, is that Top Comp?

Joe, Advanced ET is from 6.00 to 7.49 and requires a SFI 10.2 chassis for FC's and Altereds like mine.

The chassis tags for FC's and Altereds are as follows, don't know or care about the dragsters:

• SFI 10.1: < 6.00
• SFI 10.2: 6.00-7.49
• SFI 10.3: => 7.50

On the east coast, there's TDs that run 5.80's, basically a TAD.

And the "Super" classes are for the drivers, not the fans. Try explaining a stutter box to a newbie, hell even an old timer, and usually the first thing out of there mouth is "I thought drag racing was about how quick and fast you could run?".

And before any "Super" driver wants to "teach" me, I had been involved in the "Supers" since the inception of Pro Gas.

 

[Baron]

Good discussion . . .
Three things occur to me.
1) If you want to know why the casual fan prefers the racin' 'round in circles events, I have two words for you: delay box. Perhaps you would prefer these two: throttle stop.
Don't get me started on "footbrake" or "box" and "no box" as class names.
We understand this stuff. The casual fan doesn't. Anything that can't be explained quickly and simply will cause MEGO reactions from the rookie spectator.
2) Outside of the people who write dictionaries, only two people on Earth know when to use the word run and when to use the word ran.
3) The Super classes are fun. Not so much to watch, but to listen. Not to listen to the cars, but to the explanations! Every year at the MoPar Mile High Nationals I hear some young fellow (2nd time at the drag races) explaining to his date (1st time at the drag races) why those cars "suddenly slow down." I'd share a couple of these priceless explanations with you; but I'm saving them up. If my current career falters, I'm gonna' do stand up comedy - I'll use them then.
Cheers,
Ed
P.S. I have the greatest respect for every racer regardless of their chosen class or Eliminator. My comment is intended to get us thinking about how it all looks to the folks that we want to buy a ticket next week.

 

[nick name]

...But, I'll guarantee you the majority of fans would still leave the stands when they came up to run! They already do the same thing during Pro Stock. It's just a fact of national events that if it don't burn nitro the average fans doesn't give a damn!

In my experience, this is very much a regional thing. For your area, Greg, there seems to be mostly fuel fans and I've seen the very thing you describe. But come back east and you'll see different behavior.

The Midwest has always been a doorslammer hotbed starting with the Gas classes many years ago. Pro Stock gets a much warmer reception in St. Louis, Indy, Columbus, and even the southern tracks such as Bristol and Atlanta. There were never that many fuel cars around the area, certainly not many in weekly shows like all you Californians were lucky enough to see.

Even the bikes gain big crowds in certain areas such as Englishtown, Memphis, and St. Louis.

That said, from someone involved with drag racing since 1965 I'll state that the Top classes have piqued my interest also. I honestly think it's the absence of down-track electronics that make the difference. What's not to like about two fast cars charging for the finish line?