The more things change, the more they stay the same (2 Viewers)

[none]

I was looking at some old stats and came across this interesting note from an old article in NHRA notes:

Slowdown tests begin: NHRA began testing with the Miller Lite Dragster team Oct. 20 at Texas Motorplex near Dallas in an effort to devise the proper formula for rules changes that will slow Top Fuel dragsters and Funny Cars in 1998.
Driver Larry Dixon made three passes with reduced compression ratio in the engine and ignition changes. One pass was aborted due to a broken blower belt, but the other two produced performance numbers of 4.90 seconds at 288.90 mph and 4.82, 296.73.

"Dale Armstrong, who will be the team's crew chief in 1998, will examine the engine to determine exactly what the new compression ratio was and do some analysis on what the reduction of blower drive would have had on performance, said Carl Olson, NHRA vice president of technical administration and international relations. "We'll do further research and make the final announcement on performance restrictions to all racing teams as soon as possible."

Said Graham Light, NHRA senior vice president of racing operations: "Ideally, if we can produce a combination that will take a small amount of power out of the engine, it will not only reduce speeds but could result in closer races and less tire smoking, as well as cost savings to the race teams in terms of parts usage. We still recognize the spectator appeal in 300-mph speeds and plan on maintaining similar speeds in the future."

I did not realize they had been "working on" speed reduction for so long..

 

[Just Paul]

Competition Plus had a nice write up on this very subject, with Dale Armstrong a couple years back I'm pretty sure.

 

[Nunz]

Had they actually done some follow through back then, things may be drastically different today, in a lot of ways.

 

[DrRocket]

Right about that time, just about ALL of the major forms of motorsports were in the midst of reining in increasing speeds, including NASCAR, F1, and Indy cars. The thing is that when it happens, it's like waving a red cape in front of the crew cheifs.

Witness:


In 1996, Arie Luyendyk set an all-time track record 237.498mph during qualifying for the Indy 500. His 4 lap average was 233.1mph for the pole position.

Supercharging was banned the following year, displacement reduced to 4.0L, and the qualifying speed went down to 218.263.

In 2002, the qualifying speed was back up to 231.342 for the pole. That was AFTER supercharging was banned and displacement reduced from 4L to 3.5L.

Plus, how long were they racing at 1000' before they started blowing up engines again? About a half season, if I remember right. Now they're getting past 330 on a regular basis again.

The more things change, the more they stay the same

 

[Rajunz]

There was 1,000 ft. racing way before now........this is from 1965.

the more things change, the more they stay the same.

 

[mick]

the idea that speed is everything is the product either of a dumbed-down modern age or an undue obsession with numbers over actual competition.
it was fun while it lasted, now the numbers days have passed

 

[clwill]

This thread is so great. Thanks for starting it Mel.

So I'll ask the "elephant in the room" question: is 300mph magic? Do we have to have 300mph cars to make NHRA Drag Racing a viable sport? What do you think?

 

[Sandman]

No. 300mph is a marketing gimmick. I challenge any semi conscious fan to tell me that NHRA's "Big Show" floppers are more fun to watch than nostalgia funny cars just because they are faster. If they'd eliminate the speed from the scoreboards, I doubt anyone could guess the speed within 30 mph. Good racing is the key, the rest is just hype.

 

[SoCal Racer]

I see 300 mph as more of a target than a necessity. I say slow ‘em to 280 (at 1320) and let them work towards 300 again. Crew chiefs will always find a way to go faster and achieve 300 again, but in the meantime the sport will be safer, cheaper, and more viable for new competitors. When they hit 300 again pull a "NASCAR" on them - you know, like they do when NASCAR gets too fast: a smaller bore restrictor plate becomes mandatory. That’s not the correct technical solution for fuel cars, but there are many knowledgeable tuners who have solutions that would slow the fuel cars by tomorrow morning at very little cost. Why it has taken NHRA so many years to arrive at no solution is an indication of either supreme ignorance or utter unwillingness.

This cycle may have to repeat itself from time to time, but note that NASCAR's fans don't walk away each time the cars are slowed; unlike the legions of NHRA fans that have walked away after 1,000 foot.

 

[rckymtn3]

spec tire....nostalgia/goodguys style....the teams have become foundry type teams, there's few things they can't do with enough money....spec tire....they can make as much horsepower as they wish, doesn't help if you boil the hides....I also like the conversation back a few days about why/when they started spraying VHT the entire length of the track....I know they used it on the starting lines, or to return an oiled-down lane to performing equal for competition, but hell....spraying glue down the length....might as well run them on gear runs and sprockets....or like Jocko championed for a while, screw the track, and just trailer your engine to a dyno competition

yes, when they went to 1000 foot, they changed the game....wonder how many nascar fans would leave if they took away their 43 cars on track at one time and made (3) 50-lap races of 11 cars and (1) of 10, then the top 2-3 from each race continue on to a 50-lap shootout....

a 1300 foot shutdown area? wow...even then that's damned scary.....

(I understand the current tire specs are in fact, a spec tire, what i mean is a smaller spec)

 

[SoCal Racer]

To your point about track prep ... I just watched the '76 Springnationals (see this thread: http://www.nitromater.com/nhra/30359-1976-nhra-springnationals-video.html - thanks Bobby!) and they were slipping and sliding all over the place, yet never once did a a racer - win or lose - complain about track conditions.

 

[FC138fan]

I think the noise the fuel cars make is the hook. So long as the sound and vibrations these things produce do not change, speeds and ET's can be reduced. I also think only the serious fan thinks there's a real difference between 300 and 330, while to casual fans or new fans 300 is a significant number. The key is to get people to the track, because you don't get the noise and vibrations from watching it on TV; therefore you loose the hook when people watch it on TV.

However, as so many have pointed out, the alcohol cars aren't that far behind, if they remain un-restricted they will surpass the nitro cars if the nitro cars are slowed and the alcohol cars remain unchecked.

My opinion about the alcohol cars... ban nitro and keep the supercharged alcohol legal. I think this would make the classes more distinctive... the injected nitro dragsters aren't that different sounding then the supercharged ones (although to the serious fan there is a pretty big difference). The high pitched whiney supercharged alcohol cars that rev up while staging, and shift gears on the way down the track producing a much different and unique sounding run when compared to nitro cars. The blown alcohol cars keep me in the stand... where to me the injected nitro cars are just wimpy top fuel cars.

I would have to wonder if it is possible for a blown alcohol car to ever reach 300, which again would make top fuel the only class to make it there.

 

[Rajunz]

That's a great post Nick.

To your point about track prep ... I just watched the '76 Springnationals (see this thread: http://www.nitromater.com/nhra/30359-1976-nhra-springnationals-video.html - thanks Bobby!) and they were slipping and sliding all over the place, yet never once did a a racer - win or lose - complain about track conditions.

But they sure look slow compared to what we're watching now days. I think 300 mph is a magic number. We need it for marketing, no other spectator sport can market that, plus alcohol cars can run 280mph.

 

[Toejam]

This thread is so great. Thanks for starting it Mel.

So I'll ask the "elephant in the room" question: is 300mph magic? Do we have to have 300mph cars to make NHRA Drag Racing a viable sport? What do you think?

Anymore, its a been there done that! Slowing todays cars below that would Kill the sport IMO! I doubt people would get their Rocks off on a 285-290 MPH pass after a steady diet of 325-330 MPH runs!

 

[DrRocket]

There is a VERY big difference between injected and blown nitro. The injected cars simply do not have the punch you in the gut, low octave roaring "presence" that the blowers produce.

I LOVE to watch blown alky cars. I especially like it when they give the throttle a whack or two after pre-stage. There's a thread somewhere here discussing one team's methods that eliminates that, and I for one would be pretty upset if that catches hold.

To show you how long I've been a drag racing nut, I'm still pissed they don't do dry hops anymore.

 

[MHayes]

To show you how long I've been a drag racing nut, I'm still pissed they don't do dry hops anymore.

You and me both David......it used to make the starting line even that much more exciting, espcially when two cars were going back and forth wacking the throttle!

 

[Doolie]

When funny cars were running 240-260 mph they were exciting and crashes were survivable. The big wake up call was Caminito crashing at Memphis at 280. Barely survived. The present technology requires 3 million a year to be truly competitive. Dallas Gardner let the expense genie out of the bottle and the situation has deteriorated ever since. Dale Armstrong came up with a fine engine combination to reduce speeds. Did not require buying all new stuff/reinventing the wheel. He was ignored by NHRA.

 

[SoCal Racer]

When funny cars were running 240-260 mph they were exciting and crashes were survivable. The big wake up call was Caminito crashing at Memphis at 280. Barely survived. The present technology requires 3 million a year to be truly competitive. Dallas Gardner let the expense genie out of the bottle and the situation has deteriorated ever since. Dale Armstrong came up with a fine engine combination to reduce speeds. Did not require buying all new stuff/reinventing the wheel. He was ignored by NHRA.

This is exactly my earlier point. Doesn't it make more sense to slow the cars down - which increases safety while reducing costs - instead of obsoleting almost every drag strip in the world and forcing "short" racing because the shutdowns were never intended to handle the 330 mph speeds?

 

[Toejam]

This is exactly my earlier point. Doesn't it make more sense to slow the cars down - which increases safety while reducing costs - instead of obsoleting almost every drag strip in the world and forcing "short" racing because the shutdowns were never intended to handle the 330 mph speeds?

If 240-250 MPH does it for you, that's what Nostalgia Racing is for!

 

[Rat]

I was looking at some old stats and came across this interesting note from an old article in NHRA notes:

Slowdown tests begin: NHRA began testing with the Miller Lite Dragster team Oct. 20 at Texas Motorplex near Dallas in an effort to devise the proper formula for rules changes that will slow Top Fuel dragsters and Funny Cars in 1998.
Driver Larry Dixon made three passes with reduced compression ratio in the engine and ignition changes. One pass was aborted due to a broken blower belt, but the other two produced performance numbers of 4.90 seconds at 288.90 mph and 4.82, 296.73.

"Dale Armstrong, who will be the team's crew chief in 1998, will examine the engine to determine exactly what the new compression ratio was and do some analysis on what the reduction of blower drive would have had on performance, said Carl Olson, NHRA vice president of technical administration and international relations. "We'll do further research and make the final announcement on performance restrictions to all racing teams as soon as possible."

Said Graham Light, NHRA senior vice president of racing operations: "Ideally, if we can produce a combination that will take a small amount of power out of the engine, it will not only reduce speeds but could result in closer races and less tire smoking, as well as cost savings to the race teams in terms of parts usage. We still recognize the spectator appeal in 300-mph speeds and plan on maintaining similar speeds in the future."

I did not realize they had been "working on" speed reduction for so long..

It was part of Dale's monumental essay on slowing the cars down I believe in 1997. Does anyone know where I can find a copy of that?