Swept back headers no more (1 Viewer)

[TooTall999]

I wonder if the people complaining about NHRA limiting innovations are the same people wanting a return to 1/4 mile racing? If so, that would require even more limitations on performance and innovation. Food for thought, you can't have it both ways.

 

[Just Paul]

People complain

I wonder if the people complaining......

People complain just to complain.

 

[Ice Bucket]

Just to be clear, I am not so much for "spec parts", but "parts specs". Limit the parameters that would make current parts obsolete, what you do with in the specs is where the innovation is.

- Don Garlits R&D, brains and hard work

- Don Schumacher R&D, brains, hard work and Millions

 

[none]

Mr Sapienza,
Please stop with the Mr. Reinhart stuff. Call me Alan, (or that NHRA announcer jerk who thinks he knows everything! LoL) I understand what you are saying, but if everyone spends a pile of money just to stay even, would it not be better to save the money? You haven't made the racing better, you haven't made the show better, but you sure have made it harder on the guys without the big budget.

Here's great example, I think Larry Morgan is a smart guy, good engine builder, good driver, good at setting up a car, just overall a really good racer. A couple of years ago someone discovered that by building a titanium rear end housing you could shave a couple of lbs. of unsprung weight. That's a performance advantage, now the housing only lasts about 30 runs, and if I remember right they cost close to 20K, but if you could afford it it was faster. Then came the electric shocks at about 30K a pair. And you better have two sets in case you have an issue with one. They were worth a hundredth and a half, maybe two. Larry didn't have the budget for either of those so the guys that did put some distance between themselves and the others. But is it innovation to outspend your opponent? Is Larry not an innovator because his checkbook isn't as big?

P.S. Great discussion

Barry,
Did you guys get the car fixed? I was hoping that it was just A arms and not going to take a front half after that landing.
Alan

 

[Nunz]

This IS a great discussion. Alan, who says all the tricks you mentioned aren't innovative? Problem is, nowadays you need to spend to be innovative. The low hanging fruit has been gone for many years. I appreciate the pics comparing Big working on his stuff and DSR's shop, but did we expect things, or even want things to look the same after 40+ years?

 

[my friends call me Zappy]

Mr Sapienza,
Please stop with the Mr. Reinhart stuff. Call me Alan, (or that NHRA announcer jerk who thinks he knows everything! LoL) I understand what you are saying, but if everyone spends a pile of money just to stay even, would it not be better to save the money? You haven't made the racing better, you haven't made the show better, but you sure have made it harder on the guys without the big budget.

Here's great example, I think Larry Morgan is a smart guy, good engine builder, good driver, good at setting up a car, just overall a really good racer. A couple of years ago someone discovered that by building a titanium rear end housing you could shave a couple of lbs. of unsprung weight. That's a performance advantage, now the housing only lasts about 30 runs, and if I remember right they cost close to 20K, but if you could afford it it was faster. Then came the electric shocks at about 30K a pair. And you better have two sets in case you have an issue with one. They were worth a hundredth and a half, maybe two. Larry didn't have the budget for either of those so the guys that did put some distance between themselves and the others. But is it innovation to outspend your opponent? Is Larry not an innovator because his checkbook isn't as big?

P.S. Great discussion

Barry,
Did you guys get the car fixed? I was hoping that it was just A arms and not going to take a front half after that landing.
Alan

I use the "Mr." out of respect. We have never met. Although I did see you once & wanted to introduce myself, and visit. But it was at Scotts memorial
and not knowing if you were close with him, I thought that was not the time or place. There are several things I would love to discuss with you, especially with your knowledge of sportsman classes. Enough with the pleasantries already sir, to get back on track.

Alan, my fear is that I see us moving slowly closer to Nascar's IROC program. I'm not even sure if they still have it today, I don't follow Nascar.
For those that don't know: they had identically prepared cars, shipped from track to track. The drivers and crews were given the cars shortly before race time, they made final adjustments, and then they raced. I don't want that to happen to drag racing. But with NHRA micro-managing every little detail on the cars.....what's next?

 

[my friends call me Zappy]

I wonder if the people complaining about NHRA limiting innovations are the same people wanting a return to 1/4 mile racing? If so, that would require even more limitations on performance and innovation. Food for thought, you can't have it both ways.

Sir just for the record, I AM against over regulation, but I am NOT in favor of Nitro returning to 1320FT. That would be a huge mistake. I can't speak for others, that's just my .02

 

[Mooseman]

Did anyone read Virgil's post? It explained the whole deal.

 

[barry]

Whereas I understand the passion for innovation, I doubt that many fans go to a race to see the most innovative cars. If that were the case than comp eliminator would be king. They go to see side by side racing. At national events it's also the power and thunder of nitro cars. NHRA has one helluva awesome product to sell to racing fans. That was on display Saturday and Sunday at Charlotte. The fuel cars are powerful enough and certainly fast enough. They don't need more of anything. Where the innovation needs to be focused on is getting more cars in the fields so qualifying and getting in the show has more drama - even if they had a few racers from each part of the country running a few races, like local hero stuff. The innovation needs to be aimed at track cleaning technology..water removal..event sponsorship..lower ticket prices..better bathroom facilities..how to gather and utilize constructive criticism and ideas from racers and fans.. and most important, how to get a buck a pound ice cream at ALL national events.
Nascar has lower fan attendance and slowly dwindling television ratings. Now is the time for the people that steer the NHRA ship to make a move and be innovative.

Alan - The car is in a shop now. I'm waiting on the prognosis. It's like waiting for your doctor to call with the results from your blood work when you already know you cholesterol numbers stink.
Thanks for asking. Barry

 

[Toejam]

And yet once again they squelch any & all innovation. Moving us one step closer to IROC style racing. Pre prepped race cars with Identical tune ups.

While I agree that innovation is good, NHRA costs at the Pro class level are completely insane! And doing anything they can to reign in costs I think is a good thing.

 

[Marchboom]

The problem with "innovative new parts" is that the "newness" only lasts 3-4 races before the competition finds out what the secret is, duplicates it and then starts running the same times as the fast guy. Now, just to stay competitive, everyone has to spend lots of money. Having the fastest car for a few races is great for the car owners and sponsors and, depending where we are in the racing season, can mean a big difference in their overall points standing, but in the long run the costs just get even more out of hand. Get ready for 8 car fields.

 

[Jeff]

Virgil always makes great posts .... a pleasure to read every time.

Alan, I'm having a problem drawing a line between what you are saying and proposing the fuel classes being just another index race. We race and don't have the wild budget so we bracket race. Could I press and move up to TAD, probably buts its a lot of money and a lot of people .... and for me not that much more enjoyment. The people who race the fuel classes do it because of the unbridled fury and risk of the venture .... they would likely quickly lose interest if everyone could do it on their level. The people doing it at the lower echelon in the same class like the challenge of doing more with less .... David wasn't pushed out of the crowd to battle Goliath, he stepped out knowing the odds, but confident in his less than probable chances.

The racing is closer (in all likelihood, I have not Lewis Bloomed the numbers) than it ever has been. The economy is very tenuous and finding money is hard. In times like these I can understand the rules clamping down some, but otherwise I'd prefer to see the pros go faster and faster (albeit, I think 1000 ft is the right answer). Unlike say the Harley's in pro stock bike, most of the parts people are racing the fuel classes with is readily available. I love watching the tuners and the other thinkers they are surrounded with figuring out how to go ever faster. If they didn't spend the money on bodies and headers .... they'd spend it on something else. Motorsports, on the highest evolved level in virtually any class, has almost always turned into a contest of the most expensive refined parts. I truly don't think that reality has much at all to do with the pain the NHRA (and most other motorsports) are enduring today.

It seems like we have too much Fun, Fair, Positive Soccer league mentality bleeding into our heads up drag racing.

I also get a kick out of reading John Haus' post .... then reading his bye line right below it. Two faced? It is to me.

 

[T.Smith]

Alan, I'm having a problem drawing a line between what you are saying and proposing the fuel classes being just another index race.

I believe it was Paul that said that

 

[Jeff]

Actually no Tony, I was saying that if we stop innovation (Alan chose a pro stock example) we are reducing the ultimate classes in the sport to index racing for the sake of close racing. While initially the thrill of nitro is the shear uninformed madness of it, much like baseball, the lasting joy for both the fans and the participants is more in the intricacies, evolution, and advanced performance level. We are a mechanical sport as much as a people sport, if you turn down the mechanical aspect too much, it is my contention you'll lose more fans than you gain (and crew chief salaries will drop like a rock). I'm not against limiting the width of the headers, I'm just saying that Ti rear end housings and blow-mind expensive shocks are a big part of the allure of the sport.... the fact that only limited people can play at that level is a careful balance to be maintained. My real contention is that we need the economy to create more people who can afford the game while keeping a fairly light touch grip on the cost side of things.

 

[T.Smith]

Actually no Tony, I was saying that if we stop innovation (Alan chose a pro stock example) we are reducing the ultimate classes in the sport to index racing for the sake of close racing. While initially the thrill of nitro is the shear uninformed madness of it, much like baseball, the lasting joy for both the fans and the participants is more in the intricacies, evolution, and advanced performance level. We are a mechanical sport as much as a people sport, if you turn down the mechanical aspect too much, it is my contention you'll lose more fans than you gain (and crew chief salaries will drop like a rock). I'm not against limiting the width of the headers, I'm just saying that Ti rear end housings and blow-mind expensive shocks are a big part of the allure of the sport.... the fact that only limited people can play at that level is a careful balance to be maintained. My real contention is that we need the economy to create more people who can afford the game while keeping a fairly light touch grip on the cost side of things.

NHRA much like Indy Car will always have to balance innovation, costs, safety, competition and quality of the show, they just aren't in a financial position not to do so, but with that said it is still far from being index racing.

I kinda like NASCAR's approach, typically new parts have to fit the criteria of...does it make the racing better?...does it make the cars safer?...how much is it going to raise the cost of racing?

I would say there is innovation in nitro racing, but because of available technology to the well funded teams and everything that has been learned over time or canceled out by the rules, it's in small areas where the hardcore fan can't see or the teams just don't talk about it for fans to know about it. These cars make 11,000 hp, it's hard to do that without innovation.

Do new fans to drag racing really care if a car has a Ti rear-end housing?

 

[Mooseman]

Just to be clear, I am not so much for "spec parts", but "parts specs". Limit the parameters that would make current parts obsolete, what you do with in the specs is where the innovation is.

- Don Garlits R&D, brains and hard work

- Don Schumacher R&D, brains, hard work and Millions

It should be noted that that picture of garlits is from 1971 and he had a pretty well equipped shop in 1971, he was building his own chassis and engines and all the works even back then.

 

[Ice Bucket]

There is no doubt DG had what would be considered a state of the art facility for his time. The pic below shows a different angle of the equipment he had, all basic stuff found in most shops. Keep in mind this was before I was born and I am not longing for the good ol' days. My grip is there are a lot of rich and smart people sitting on the side line because it is so out of control. In the mean time NHRA has short fields.

 

[stitcherbob]

Innovation used to be outsmarting the other guys to go faster. Now, with 11,000hp on tap, innovation is more trying to use most of that power without doing what Terry Mcmillan or Doug Herbert did.
That's called keeping the costs down....

Now, as for titanium rear ends, maybe just outlaw exotic metals in certain applications. Valvetrain, sure...... rear end housings, no....

ps - here's a reminder of what innovation can be and how out of control it can get, otherwise known as cheating! :

http://www.canepacollection.com/det...evelle_nascar-smokey_yunick-used-5117058.html