Slowing Them Down Will Reduce The Carnage? (1 Viewer)

[twostep]

Ahem.

With roughly half the power nitro cars produce today and quarter-mile speeds around 280, Mark Oswald puts on a weenie roast like no other at the Texas Motorplex, as violent as anything we've witnessed in the 30 years since. I was standing by the fence maybe 100 feet away when this thing went off. I've seen plenty of still pictures but never a video (posted on NHRA's home page right now).

Relive one of the biggest Funny Car blasts in history: Mark Oswald in Dallas in 1990

Long before Mark Oswald was a crew chief on Antron Brown's Top Fueler, he was a successful Top Fuel and Funny Car driver for the Candies & Hughes team but as you'll see this is this clip, tings didn't always go right for Oswald and team.

www.nhra.com

 

[Nunz]

The theory is, with the quality of the parts now vs. 30 years ago, taking some power away would result in an exponential increase in longevity.

 

[TSK]

I was at Ennis when that happened. My seats were at about the 60 ft mark. The concussion from that explosion was unreal. I bet Oswald felt like he got punched by a young Mike Tyson after that boomer.

 

[Cliff]

I had heard stories about the old front motor T/F having the blower explode in front of the driver. Drivers said it was like a grenade going off in front of them. I bet Roger Gates would have some stories about that. Saw a lot of cars "woof the blower' back in the day. One thing about today's cars. They have blower bags that contain most of the debris. back then, no bags & parts went flying everywhere. Amazing people in the stands didn't get killed by debris, altho there were some injuries. One of my little treasures is a piece of blower from a AA/FA, that exploded right in front of me, at the old Speedworld in Phoenix. No one got hurt in that one....

 

[none]

The problem is trying to reprogram "Racer Mentality" and that is impossible. The desire to go fast and win at any cost is the root of the issue and I don't know of any way to solve that.

No matter what rules you have in place there will always be someone willing to spend $100 to win a $10 purse. Then as a competitor you either spend to keep up, or get your a$$ kicked every week by the guys who are willing to spend the money. Once it evolves to the point where everyone is spending $100 each week, the racers will start calling for the purse to be raised because it doesn't cover the cost of competing. Sound familiar?

The 10,500 RPM rule in Pro Stock was put in place for one reason. To save valve springs and save the teams money. As soon as it went into effect, the engine shops decided that if we can't run 12,000 RPM then we can get away with more lift and more aggressive cam profiles, so now 1.250" lift is common. Couldn't do that at 12,000 RPM, but at 10,500 you can. And guess what? Six months down the road, valve spring life didn't change, money spent on new cam designs and development was substantial.

Everyone has ideas about reducing the cost of Nitro racing. But for every suggestion I have heard there are consequences, and often the consequences would be worse than what we have now.

"Just listen to the teams" is an idea that sounds good, but you have to understand that even Connie and Don don't agree on everything. And what might be helpful to the "Super teams" might put Tim Wilkerson, Cruz Pedregon and Bob Tasca out of business.

A suggestion was made that NHRA could mandate a different engine package starting in 2022 so the teams could use up the inventory they have and work on testing the new stuff before the rules went into effect. What would that do to someone like T.J. Zizzo? they have spent the last couple of years building an inventory so when they come out, they are as well stocked as anyone for that weekend. Could they use up all the stuff they have, buy all new stuff, test and be where they are competitively by 2022? Maybe Tony Smith can answer that.

Alan

 

[Ramjet]

I had heard stories about the old front motor T/F having the blower explode in front of the driver. Drivers said it was like a grenade going off in front of them. I bet Roger Gates would have some stories about that. Saw a lot of cars "woof the blower' back in the day. One thing about today's cars. They have blower bags that contain most of the debris. back then, no bags & parts went flying everywhere. Amazing people in the stands didn't get killed by debris, altho there were some injuries. One of my little treasures is a piece of blower from a AA/FA, that exploded right in front of me, at the old Speedworld in Phoenix. No one got hurt in that one....

Here's the thing about the Blowers. #1 - A 671 (or parts thereof) taste really bad weather or not it is polished. It also hurts A LOT when things explode. Most cars back then had the single Hoop barely even with your face so you could see better. We also held the Blower down with really strong SBC short head studs and threw away the spring loaded "Pop Off" plate and capped it off with a 3/4" thick 6061 aluminum plate glued down tight, then held down with lock nuts so it didn't leak. Then as a Safety measure we left the Harness a little loose so you could slide down the seat in case of an emergency like that inferior cast aluminum manifold giving up if you lipped a piston. All kidding aside it was a recipe for disaster. Safety stuff has improved exponentially and NHRA was not just trying to keep us broke with Safety updates so we couldn't buy or build new parts to go faster.
Alan is absolutely correct in saying "The problem is trying to reprogram "Racer Mentality" and that is impossible. The desire to go fast and win at any cost is the root of the issue and I don't know of any way to solve that". I will promise you that whatever rules can be made to reduce cost or performance that racers will figure out how to spend more money and go faster and quicker than what ever those rules are looking for. It is human nature and Big Fish (monetarily) will always be able to eat little fish.

 

[Fireball]

I will promise you that whatever rules can be made to reduce cost or performance that racers will figure out how to spend more money and go faster and quicker than what ever those rules are looking for. It is human nature and Big Fish (monetarily) will always be able to eat little fish.

There it is and always will be, as long as we have drag racing.

 

[camaro]

"Just listen to the teams" is an idea that sounds good, but you have to understand that even Connie and Don don't agree on everything. And what might be helpful to the "Super teams" might put Tim Wilkerson, Cruz Pedregon and Bob Tasca out of business.



Alan

. . . . but what is the alternative ? If the NHRA staff decides on all the changes with no racer input, then u get the current situation in pro stock now. The Sanctioning body called for EFI, shorter wheelie bar, 10.5K etc. and the only thing it accomplished was the competitors spending lots of money and it hasten the exodus of teams from the class !

 

[none]

. . . . but what is the alternative ? If the NHRA staff decides on all the changes with no racer input, then u get the current situation in pro stock now. The Sanctioning body called for EFI, shorter wheelie bar, 10.5K etc. and the only thing it accomplished was the competitors spending lots of money and it hasten the exodus of teams from the class !

NHRA spent two years talking to Pro Stock teams before making the changes they made. Everyone agreed in principle that and RPM limit would be a good thing, then they get all up in arms when the change is made.

Two things racers don't like.
They don't like the way things are, and they don't like change.

Alan

 

[twostep]

There's some really good discussion here on behalf of some really intelligent, experienced people; I've learned something and I'm on board with it. I will say this - if NHRA determines it's time to slow the fuel cars down there are ways. May not be popular or financially expedient but there's ways. Going back to 1320...ehh, I doubt it and it doesn't bother me (or most of the teams) one bit to stay at 1000. I was used to it 3-4 races after it was implemented back in 2008. I don't believe it saves on parts but that extra 320 feet is nice to have. And let's be honest - nitro racing is frightfully expensive no matter how you structure it and if you think about it, the last NHRA racer to die in a fuel car incident was Scott Kalitta, so overall considering its nature, it's actually been pretty safe.

Something has to be done about the purses. We had COVID to contend with in 2020 but still, a competitive Pro Stock team that costs $1M + a year to operate would now do better financially to install Powerglides and delay boxes in them and run 'em at any regional bracket event. But that's NHRA's business. We can all point fingers at NHRA marketing mismanagement but in reality unless we're directly involved we don't really know. What we do know, and in my opinion it's an issue that can never be resolved, is that it's 2020 - not the 60s, back in the heyday of the super tracks in California and the almost insane interest in high performance cars. It's just not that way anymore; it's a big-tech world with young people who years ago seeded the sport of drag racing are now into social media, video games, and the latest smartphone. And no amount of $$$$$ or marketing effort on the part of the sanctioning bodies is going to change that.

I don't know what the answer is, and apparently neither does anyone else - other than to just keep doing what we're going and hopefully get next year's purses back up to at least pre-COVID levels which will prop up the little teams somewhat. Drag racing will survive or it won't; simple as that.

 

[Nunz]

There's some really good discussion here on behalf of some really intelligent, experienced people; I've learned something and I'm on board with it. I will say this - if NHRA determines it's time to slow the fuel cars down there are ways. May not be popular or financially expedient but there's ways. Going back to 1320...ehh, I doubt it and it doesn't bother me (or most of the teams) one bit to stay at 1000. I was used to it 3-4 races after it was implemented back in 2008. I don't believe it saves on parts but that extra 320 feet is nice to have. And let's be honest - nitro racing is frightfully expensive no matter how you structure it and if you think about it, the last NHRA racer to die in a fuel car incident was Scott Kalitta, so overall considering its nature, it's actually been pretty safe.

Something has to be done about the purses. We had COVID to contend with in 2020 but still, a competitive Pro Stock team that costs $1M + a year to operate would now do better financially to install Powerglides and delay boxes in them and run 'em at any regional bracket event. But that's NHRA's business. We can all point fingers at NHRA marketing mismanagement but in reality unless we're directly involved we don't really know. What we do know, and in my opinion it's an issue that can never be resolved, is that it's 2020 - not the 60s, back in the heyday of the super tracks in California and the almost insane interest in high performance cars. It's just not that way anymore; it's a big-tech world with young people who years ago seeded the sport of drag racing are now into social media, video games, and the latest smartphone. And no amount of $$$$$ or marketing effort on the part of the sanctioning bodies is going to change that.

I don't know what the answer is, and apparently neither does anyone else - other than to just keep doing what we're going and hopefully get next year's purses back up to at least pre-COVID levels which will prop up the little teams somewhat. Drag racing will survive or it won't; simple as that.

I think drag racing will always survive, as someone said, as long as there are 2 people with cars, lol. The discussion is really about the "big show", specifically the pro classes, although every class can use help. Nobody will ever, ever make money racing a pro car unless they're underwritten by marketing partners. But there's no doubt that the financial model needs a re-work. A bump in round money, and anything at all that brings down expenses, results in more teams showing up, and that holds true from TF on down.

 

[camaro]

NHRA spent two years talking to Pro Stock teams before making the changes they made. Everyone agreed in principle that and RPM limit would be a good thing, then they get all up in arms when the change is made.

Two things racers don't like.
They don't like the way things are, and they don't like change.

Alan

I recalled the interviews, shortly after the changes and all of the drivers declared, that they were not consulted. i guess they were all lying then!

 

[cknight]

I had previously asked what the parameters and results of the NHRA "requested" slow them-down fuel car tests were in the last couple of years. Two that I know of were with decently running funny car teams. The other (much older) test was the self-sponsored Prudhomme-Armstrong compression limiting test, which was publicized. Everyone seems to be a bit silent on these recent ones, and any others that may have occurred. Alan, Tony, Mike, anyone want to comment? Or do I need the secret decoder ring...... Chase

 

[John Capps Sr.]

......, less wing.........!!!

 

[twostep]

I had previously asked what the parameters and results of the NHRA "requested" slow them-down fuel car tests were in the last couple of years. Two that I know of were with decently running funny car teams. The other (much older) test was the self-sponsored Prudhomme-Armstrong compression limiting test, which was publicized. Everyone seems to be a bit silent on these recent ones, and any others that may have occurred. Alan, Tony, Mike, anyone want to comment? Or do I need the secret decoder ring...... Chase

Dale Armstrong consistently banged the "lower compression, reduced blower overdrive" drum as the key to slowing the cars down. Garlits banged the "less prep" drum which NHRA eventually did, somewhat, but by now the teams have pretty much adjusted to that. I personally watched Robert Hight run 3.82/338 on the 'no-prepped' Texas Motorplex surface.

A few years back a couple of teams, at NHRA's request, experimented with 426" engines, blower OD around 20% and a much smaller fuel pump. If I recall, they ran 4.20s in the mid-280mph range. Obviously that plan didn't stick around long.

 

[twostep]

......, less wing.........!!!

Yes but safety reasons have likely put the kibosh on that idea. Ask your boy; he'd know. And ask any Pro Stock racer - and Cruz Pedregon, who went through the traps at nearly 300mph with the front wheels 6 feet in the air (thanks to laid-back headers, which had the same effect as less wing)

 

[TD5023]

Yes but safety reasons have likely put the kibosh on that idea. Ask your boy; he'd know. And ask any Pro Stock racer - and Cruz Pedregon, who went through the traps at nearly 300mph with the front wheels 6 feet in the air (thanks to laid-back headers, which had the same effect as less wing)

The laid-back headers aren't quite the same as reduced wing because the lost downforce from the headers is in front of the pivot-point (rear axle). I don't know what the true direction of the force from the wing is, but logically, less wing on a funny car should create less of a moment around the axle, reducing the likelihood of wheelstands at speed.

 

[John Capps Sr.]

Yes but safety reasons have likely put the kibosh on that idea. Ask your boy; he'd know. And ask any Pro Stock racer - and Cruz Pedregon, who went through the traps at nearly 300mph with the front wheels 6 feet in the air (thanks to laid-back headers, which had the same effect as less wing)

If the traction is not there, the cars will have to be slowed down until it is. If you don't believe that then give them a bunch more down force and stand back...!!! It would still be the cheapest and easiest way to slow them down.

The laid-back headers aren't quite the same as reduced wing because the lost downforce from the headers is in front of the pivot-point (rear axle). I don't know what the true direction of the force from the wing is, but logically, less wing on a funny car should create less of a moment around the axle, reducing the likelihood of wheelstands at speed.

..., what he said....

 

[Marchboom]

Heard a well known crew chief say a few years ago that reducing the intake valve size would be one way to slow the cars down. They could still play around with all the other parts but no increasing the intake valve size. I'm not a crew chief so I have no idea what the results would be regarding the engines staying together.

 

[T.Smith]

A suggestion was made that NHRA could mandate a different engine package starting in 2022 so the teams could use up the inventory they have and work on testing the new stuff before the rules went into effect. What would that do to someone like T.J. Zizzo? they have spent the last couple of years building an inventory so when they come out, they are as well stocked as anyone for that weekend. Could they use up all the stuff they have, buy all new stuff, test and be where they are competitively by 2022? Maybe Tony Smith can answer that.

Alan

That would be difficult, especially with the limited amount of runs we get to make during a season. People forget that the stabilization of the rules helps a team like us to be competitive. We've been able to get to a point where we "almost" have everything the car in the other lane has.