NHRA Changes Minimum Weights for Most Pro Stock Motorcycles...again (1 Viewer)

[.]

Buell's get slapped with 5 lbs increase to 625 lbs
Suzuki's get to take off 5 lbs to 605 lbs
Harley's unchanged
Kawasaki drops to 600 lbs

Steve Johnson:

“In four years we have had 59 races and Suzukis only qualified number one 15 times and 12 of them were Angelle,” he said. “Last year there were 48 top-three spots. The V-twins had 36 of those spots while Suzuki had 12. V-twins had 11 number one qualifiers and Suzukis had five.”

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[PiPPi]

The whole deal is that in Gainesville qualifying, the Guidera Buell was more than 5/100 quicker than other brands which prompts NHRA to start rolling the weight-dice around.

Summary for at least the next race:
- G2 Buells get 5 lbs addition, now min. 625 lbs.
- Suzukis get to take 5 lbs off, now min. 605 lbs.
- V-Rods stay put 620 lbs.
- The Kawasaki gets to take 15 lbs off, now min. 600 lbs.

This whole thing feels a tad off and not too fresh IMO. The current PSM-record is still held by a Suzuki but NHRA now starts to spin the weight roulette whenever there's a 5/100 discrepancy between brands in qualifying at any given race.

Most assuredly, NHRA has a tough job to keep brand parity in PSM but I think they reacted too fast and too harsh. Keep in mind that the 2008 Gators was not a full qualifier race, the bikes only got 2 rounds due to rain. This being the first PSM race for the season with 4 qualifying runs sorely needed for the teams to realize anything close to their full potential.

Compare this with last years Gators, a Suzuki qualified #1 with a 6.91 which also would have been the #1 qualifier this year, and numbers 2 and 3 at last years Gators qualifying were both Suzukis with good enough ETs to have those Suzukis in the 1-3-4 spots this year.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I can remember the Suzukis were 5 lbs heavier going into last years Gators than this year.

Worth noting is that during eliminations this year, the fastest run by a Buell was only 13 thou's faster than the fastest V-Rod and only 32 thou's off Chip Ellis' fastest run with a Suzuki.

It must feel like crap for all the Buell teams to get shafted just because one team gets the job done while the Suzukis do not keep up the performance from last year. Not the best motivation to keep pouring in the mega-bucks it takes to run a full NHRA season in PSM.

Regards
PiPPi
http://HarleyDrags.com

 

[Vicious]

I wonder how close Guidera is to being at the minimum weight. He's no small fry.

 

[Vicious]

 

[d'kid]

Strange, but I do find some humor in this.

The quickest bike in pre season testing doesn't get hit.
The Kaw, which is in development gets a big weight break.
The 'zukis, which 'lost' their top two bikes, gets a weight break.
The Buells, with the most bikes out there, has a team that can run quicker by .05 than all the rest of the bikes out there and as a brand, they get hit with extra weight.

I thought the class was PRO stock bike. All the bikes should weight the same with the same CID. If ya can't keep up, got back to the drawing board.
OR: Make it a dial in/handicap class.

Using the same theory, P/S Fords should get a 200 pound weight break. Oh, and while you're at it, P/S cars should go back to full size bodies, stock wheelbase, and motors that can be purchased off the showroom floor.

Which really begs the question, is there anything 'Stock' in either Pro Stock class. What option box do I check at the dealership to order a 500 CID rear wheel drive Cobalt, or a new Poncho? People B**ch they can't tell funny cars apart, I feel the same way about P/S... and Matt, love you, your lady, your sis, and your dad, but geez, how the heck do you tell a Buell from a H/D?

Just my buck ninety five worth
d'kid
N ot
H aving
R acing
A nymore

 

[afx421]

here we go again, the nhra favoring the suzukis. lord this is stupid. i thought the idea of drag racing was to work as hard as you can, find a good combo and go as fast as you can. not in the eyes of the nhra. if you go fast you get penalized. makes no sense. in track and field do they set the fastest runner back 2 feet? do they make tiger woods stand on 1 foot? does baseball make josh beckett pitch with his non pitching hand? i know people will argue that it "levels the playing field" but put yourselves in matt guideras posistion, hes got a killer set up now hes penalized. drag racing is the fastest wins period.

 

[Toejam]

Is a 5 lb. increase suppose to make a .05 difference?

 

[theraceman]

Give NHRA some credit here.

When some of you post “Suzuki” or “Buell”, you don’t seem to acknowledge that it doesn’t mean the same thing because of the riders.

Last year “Suzuki” included Schumacher / Angelle / Antron – “Suzuki does not mean that in ’08. Posting “Suzuki” numbers is a muddy way of making a point.

Angelle and Antron with Schumacher were positioned well ’07. Now with George, she will again be near the top and she will now be included in the “Buell” numbers, making runs that other Buell riders never could come close too.

I think Angelle will be near the top no matter what she's on.

Take the top single Suzuki / Buell / V-Rod rider out of the mix and the Suzuki’s are a hurtin bunch.

Finally, ya’ll talk weight but since the engine sized are drastically different between the bikes, they are no way near even anyway.

 

[.]

How many years has it been since the V-twins were allowed in the class? In all that time I have yet to see a Buel roll off the production line with big air scoops like on the Buell PSM bikes. I also haven't seen a single Harley with an engine that is even remotely similar to what the Harley PSM bikes are running. I thought they were supposed to be based on production style bikes? I can still drive down to the Suzuki dealer and order a set of GS engine cases that are legal in PSM though.

 

[d'kid]

Give NHRA some credit here.

When some of you post “Suzuki” or “Buell”, you don’t seem to acknowledge that it doesn’t mean the same thing because of the riders.

Last year “Suzuki” included Schumacher / Angelle / Antron – “Suzuki does not mean that in ’08. Posting “Suzuki” numbers is a muddy way of making a point.

Angelle and Antron with Schumacher were positioned well ’07. Now with George, she will again be near the top and she will now be included in the “Buell” numbers, making runs that other Buell riders never could come close too.

I think Angelle will be near the top no matter what she's on.

Take the top single Suzuki / Buell / V-Rod rider out of the mix and the Suzuki’s are a hurtin bunch.

Finally, ya’ll talk weight but since the engine sized are drastically different between the bikes, they are no way near even anyway.

Which is why I said everyone uses the same CID and weight. if 'zuki get 145 cid at 605 pounds, everyone gets 145 cid at 605 pounds or whatever the bloody number is going to be.

I thought this was a heads up class. If you don't have a hot rod that cuts the mustard, don't play. If not, then it's not a heads up PRO class.

d'kid

 

[d'kid]

How many years has it been since the V-twins were allowed in the class? In all that time I have yet to see a Buel roll off the production line with big air scoops like on the Buell PSM bikes. I also haven't seen a single Harley with an engine that is even remotely similar to what the Harley PSM bikes are running. I thought they were supposed to be based on production style bikes? I can still drive down to the Suzuki dealer and order a set of GS engine cases that are legal in PSM though.

Brett,
You ever try to buy a 500 CID Cobalt? or a 500 CID anything off the showroom floor?

Nether P/S class has anything to do with stock. What we have is G/FC and G/FB. Time we called a Spade a Shovel.

d'kid

 

[.]

Brett,
You ever try to buy a 500 CID Cobalt? or a 500 CID anything off the showroom floor?

Nether P/S class has anything to do with stock. What we have is G/FC and G/FB. Time we called a Spade a Shovel.

d'kid

The rules clearly said they must be based on production type engines, stock size upper fairing, no large scoops, etc. That would make the Buell's and Harley's illegal for the class since the Buell's never came with scoops anything like what they're running and the Harley engine is as far removed as a production engine as you can find. The Suzuki's are still running production style GS engines which you can buy cases for at nearly any Suzuki dealer and the upper fairings are the same size as the production bikes were.

 

[Nick Name]

When the McClaren Suzuki engine is released, the Suzukis will have more weight added.

Jay

 

[PiPPi]

Give NHRA some credit here.

When some of you post “Suzuki” or “Buell”, you don’t seem to acknowledge that it doesn’t mean the same thing because of the riders.

Last year “Suzuki” included Schumacher / Angelle / Antron – “Suzuki does not mean that in ’08. Posting “Suzuki” numbers is a muddy way of making a point.

Angelle and Antron with Schumacher were positioned well ’07. Now with George, she will again be near the top and she will now be included in the “Buell” numbers, making runs that other Buell riders never could come close too.

English is not my first language so apologies for any misunderstandings here but I take it you're saying that NHRA is not working for parity of the hardware of the four PSM brands but rather for parity of a combination of a brand and quality of a particular team?

If so, that is the point made many times about the problems of PSM teams getting penalized solely for doing an excellent job and having an excellent rider.

The rules clearly said they must be based on production type engines, stock size upper fairing, no large scoops, etc. That would make the Buell's and Harley's illegal for the class since the Buell's never came with scoops anything like what they're running ...

Stock or not? We're talking about the "G2 Buell", not a "Buell". Think about it: Isn't the "G2 Buell" the most standard stock production bike ever run in NHRA Pro Stock Motorcycle competition? You buy one off the G2 showroom floor and can race it and place it right out of the box the way it comes from the G2 works with "nothing else" but chassis and EFI tuning. The "G2 Buell" never existed in any other form or shape than just a "G2 Buell", it is massproduced by a motorcycle company and sold to the general public with no need for hardware modification to go racing which is a huge difference compared to the so called Harley V-Rods or Suzuki GSXRs that race in todays NHRA PSM.

A visual: Put a bone stock production "G2 Buell" next to a race ready NHRA PSM "G2 Buell" and do the same for a bone stock Harley V-Rod and a NHRA PSM Harley V-Rod and include a bone stock Suzuki GSXR and its NHRA PSM namesake. The two "G2 Buells" in that line up of six bikes will be identical which cannot be said for the V-Rod or the GSXR.

Basically, according to the rules that were cited up above none of the other Pro Stock Motorcycles can match the points of being a stock production bike like the "G2 Buell".

That could be settled by NHRA putting some very clear-cut and hardcore homologation rules into effect. Though I'm sure that would open up a whole 'nother huge can o'worms and simply push the parity-work to an even more complex level. I.e. a homologation rule that doesn't make for the V-Rods and DSR McLaren Suzukis having to be put up for sale to the general public

Regards
PiPPi
http://HarleyDrags.com

 

[d'kid]

Brent,

Just re read the whole PSM section in the rulebook. Talk about contradicting themselves. Are those Big A scoops part of the flaring or part of the gas tank cover? OEM heads or approved aftermarket. That whole section left me scratching my head. I'm all for a 200cid 45* HD at 600 pounds.

Still leaves me thinking two things, min weight, max cid for the class. or run the class with a handicapped tree, and you break out of your dial in, you loose.

personally, I like the min/max. works for the other three pro classes. The real question is, do the OEM's care enough about drag racing to do an engine that fits.

d'kid

 

[Nick Name]

English is not my first language so apologies for any misunderstandings here but I take it you're saying that NHRA is not working for parity of the hardware of the four PSM brands but rather for parity of a combination of a brand and quality of a particular team?

If so, that is the point made many times about the problems of PSM teams getting penalized solely for doing an excellent job and having an excellent rider.

Stock or not? We're talking about the "G2 Buell", not a "Buell". Think about it: Isn't the "G2 Buell" the most standard stock production bike ever run in NHRA Pro Stock Motorcycle competition? You buy one off the G2 showroom floor and can race it and place it right out of the box the way it comes from the G2 works with "nothing else" but chassis and EFI tuning. The "G2 Buell" never existed in any other form or shape than just a "G2 Buell", it is massproduced by a motorcycle company and sold to the general public with no need for hardware modification to go racing which is a huge difference compared to the so called Harley V-Rods or Suzuki GSXRs that race in todays NHRA PSM.

A visual: Put a bone stock production "G2 Buell" next to a race ready NHRA PSM "G2 Buell" and do the same for a bone stock Harley V-Rod and a NHRA PSM Harley V-Rod and include a bone stock Suzuki GSXR and its NHRA PSM namesake. The two "G2 Buells" in that line up of six bikes will be identical which cannot be said for the V-Rod or the GSXR.

Basically, according to the rules that were cited up above none of the other Pro Stock Motorcycles can match the points of being a stock production bike like the "G2 Buell".

That could be settled by NHRA putting some very clear-cut and hardcore homologation rules into effect. Though I'm sure that would open up a whole 'nother huge can o'worms and simply push the parity-work to an even more complex level. I.e. a homologation rule that doesn't make for the V-Rods and DSR McLaren Suzukis having to be put up for sale to the general public

Regards
PiPPi
http://HarleyDrags.com

I am confused. Are you under the impression that the G2 Buell is a mass produced motorcycle, sold to the general public for use on public roads?

Jay

 

[PiPPi]

I am confused. Are you under the impression that the G2 Buell is a mass produced motorcycle, sold to the general public for use on public roads?

Surely I'm pushing it pretty much, that's what discussions are for

To sum up a different point of view: Suzuki Motor Corporation, Harley-Davidson, Inc., and G2 Motorsports are motorcycle manufacturers. G2 Motorsports is the only one of those three who manufactures and sells NHRA legal Pro Stock motorcycles today. In a sense, Harley-Davidson sorta manufactures a Pro Stock bike but they don't sell it. The Suzuki Motor Corporation neither manufactures nor sells a Pro Stock bike.
____________

Stock? Sure, those G2 Buells don't come cheap and don't sell 45,000 units a year but in the same sense as a Bugatti Veyron, Koenigsegg CCX, Saleen S7 etc. the G2 Buell Pro Stock Bike is a stock production line vehicle out of the G2 Motorsports works.

The point was to think out of the box about what is the state of "stock" of a current NHRA PSM. In that regard a Pro Stock G2 Buell is a whole lot closer to 2 outa 3 of of the above than anything that comes out of the Suzuki and Harley-Davidson production lines and is up for purchase in their showrooms (simply because they don't sell PSM's but G2 does).

OK, nitpicking and out on the proverbial limb here, but by definition the G2 Buell (as designed, produced and sold by G2 Motorsports) is a mass produced motorcycle that is sold to racers who can fork up the bucks. The manufacturer puts up full spec's in public for a raceready G2 Buell Pro Stock bike that comes with options, a clear pricetag and partsnumbers for spares.

Now, what "mass produced" means is all in the eye of the beerholder (and a straightforward case for homologation rules that NHRA never will put into place due to the problems it would cause) but the Suzuki Motor Corporation and Harley-Davidson, Inc., obviously cannot match the G2 Motorsport production and sales of stock motorcycles that shows up in NHRA Pro Stock Motorcycle competition. "Stock" as in all the hardware comes from the manufacturer of the bike, not as in the case is from a 20 year-old Suzuki or the V-Rod stickers and R&D bucks come out of the MoCo headquarters.

As for "use on public roads", obviously not. I know a lot better than what you're trying to credit me for but my bad. If I gave any impression of implying anything to that effect then it was a mistake in my writing.

Regards
PiPPi
hrrp://HarleyDrags.com

 

[.]

Surely I'm pushing it pretty much, that's what discussions are for

To sum up a different point of view: Suzuki Motor Corporation, Harley-Davidson, Inc., and G2 Motorsports are motorcycle manufacturers. G2 Motorsports is the only one of those three who manufactures and sells NHRA legal Pro Stock motorcycles today. In a sense, Harley-Davidson sorta manufactures a Pro Stock bike but they don't sell it. The Suzuki Motor Corporation neither manufactures nor sells a Pro Stock bike.

You don't quite get the part about them supposedly being based on production street bikes, do you?

One more time...the Suzuki GSX-R, TL and Hayabusa PSM's were all based on production bikes and ran Suzuki GS based engines, the cases for which you can order at nearly any Suzuki dealer. I'm sure Jay could get you a set of cases if you want. They also used upper fairings that were the same size as a production bike and were not allowed to use over-sized air intakes (like the Buell's).


The Buell engine isn't based on a production engine, it's the wrong angle between the cylinders. There's also never been a model that came with big mailbox-sized ram-air ducts like they're also running.

The Harley engine is a specially designed racing engine that has nothing in common with a production Harley engine.

So according to NHRA's own rules, when they were originally let into the class, neither of the V-twins should have been allowed to compete.

 

[PiPPi]

You don't quite get the part about them supposedly being based on production street bikes, do you?

I did write "To sum up a different point of view" The discussion above is actually applicable in other sanctions of Pro Stock motorcycle racing than NHRA but that's off-topic in here.

No, I don't have access to a 2008 NHRA Rulebook right now. If you have time to spare, what exactly do the current NHRA Pro Stock Bike rules state about "production street bikes"?

Regards
PiPPi
http://HarleyDrags.com

 

[matt Smith]

I think that NHRA is doing the class really wrong.... We have teams out there working there butts off trying to find horsepower just to get slapped in the face... Matt G. hit the perfect set up in the second roung of qualifying... I missed the set up so did the Harleys and so did the suzuki's... On race day all 3 makes were within 3 hunds of each other... I just don't understand the NHRA's motive here... As far as the big scoops on the buell, there 2 big for us... When S&S brought this buell to NHRA 4 or 5 years ago thats what they submitted... WE have tried to get them to let us put smaller scoops on but they won't let us... If you want to change something you have to make a whole new body design and then submitte it to NHRA.... The buell has 1 scoop on the left side so S&S evened it up by putting 1 on the right side also... I'm am right now building a new chassis and body design for the buell... And NHRA has been to the shop 3 times to see the bike... We are hoping to have the bike ready for the public after st. louis....