Hmmmmmmmmm

[Jimbo]

Ever wonder why most airliners have 2 engines? That is because it is the least likely combination to have a failure.

Seems this applies to 4 wide racing as well. A lot more issues and chances of people getting hurt... Just ask Hagan or the Greeks Crew...

Maybe the NHRA could learn something from the Boeing and Airbus when it comes to safety.

What is the safest number when it comes to failure... That would be "2"...

 

[none]

I think I get it, you don't care for the four wide. But please explain what it had to do with Hagen blowing up or the issue that the Greek had.............


Oh that's right it had NOTHING AT ALL to do with four wide.


Alan

 

[mick]

3 & 4 hole designs are not and have not been prone to failure.
2 hole designs have become more efficient for passenger routes, both
long and short haul.
many 3 & 4 hole planes still in sky; many still in production, including
the 747 and a380

 

[Jimbo]

I think I get it, you don't care for the four wide. But please explain what it had to do with Hagen blowing up or the issue that the Greek had.............


Oh that's right it had NOTHING AT ALL to do with four wide.


Alan

Alan,

I would have to disagree completely.

1. It takes longer to stage 4 cars, PERIOD!:

In a Fuel Car waiting can cause huge problems to the tune up and Part Failure.

This very well "COULD" be part or even the root cause of the problems with Hagan and others...

Since your in the know, please feel free to share your insight on why having to wait for three other fuel cars to stage is not a contributing factor in engine failure, etc in four wide racing.

2. Mass confusion at the line during Start Up and Staging:

The starting line process for fuel cars is dangerous as is. Adding 2 additional fuel car, the team members etc to the mix adds to the probability of something going wrong. Hell John Force the NHRA golden boy himself admitted to "being confused" at the line and he has more laps in a Nitro Car than anyone racing at this time to the best of my knowledge. So if John's confused, well I rest my case...

This very well "COULD" have been a factor it the Greek Crew Issue. Can you say for sure it wasn't a factor?

BTW: Millions of dollars worth of statistical data gathered by some of the most technological advanced companies on the planet on probability of failure does not lie.

3. General Safety.

What will the Safety Safari do if 3 or 4 cars have problems at the same time. Is there truly enough coverage to take care of 4 cars in the event of a catastrophic failure? IMHO, I don't think so.


Please feel free to advise how you ruled out the probability of failure with the "Additional Time" and "Confusion" the the NHRA 4 Wide "Circus Atmosphere" brings to the table.

I posted this because I for one want the teams to be safe as possible when racing. I would hope you would want the same...

Regards

 

[Jimbo]

3 & 4 hole designs are not and have not been prone to failure.
2 hole designs have become more efficient for passenger routes, both
long and short haul.
many 3 & 4 hole planes still in sky; many still in production, including
the 747 and a380

Boeing and Airbus disagree based on their design studies. The only reason the 747 has 4 engines is due to the payload and distance, it was also designed in the '60s and first flown commercially in 1970. All new Boeing Commercial designs have been 2 engine. There is a reason for that, they have learned a lot since the '60s...

 

[mick]

yes, passenger designs are 2-holers, due to their effeciency,
not prone to failure.
airbus just stopped producing the a340, will be replaced with the a350
with variations to compete with 767,777 & 787
their long haul passenger a380 continues to provide world class passenger service......
as does the 747, both have 4 engines, mainly due to their payload and distance,
as you stated in your last post.

 

[TSK]

I think I get it, you don't care for the four wide. But please explain what it had to do with Hagen blowing up or the issue that the Greek had.............


Oh that's right it had NOTHING AT ALL to do with four wide.


Alan

Journalism 101: All proper names must be spelled correctly. Hagan, Hagan, Hagan.
And, I'll be nice and not highlight my response in red.

 

[Chris]

Journalism 101: All proper names must be spelled correctly. Hagan, Hagan, Hagan.
And, I'll be nice and not highlight my response in red.

Good thing this is an internet forum.........

 

[d'kid]

Journalism 101: All proper names must be spelled correctly. Hagan, Hagan, Hagan.
And, I'll be nice and not highlight my response in red.

spilling r not a chick point on the nitromater...

beesides, Alan are a Anoucer , knot a jurnylist...

Poking Fun at the Short Guy

D'kid

 

[my friends call me Zappy]

Ever wonder why most airliners have 2 engines? That is because it is the least likely combination to have a failure.

Seems this applies to 4 wide racing as well. A lot more issues and chances of people getting hurt... Just ask Hagan or the Greeks Crew...

Maybe the NHRA could learn something from the Boeing and Airbus when it comes to safety.

What is the safest number when it comes to failure... That would be "2"...

Are we to asume you want airplanes built for one passenger??
And Nitro cars go one at a time???
If, as you say 2, is safer than four....then one is safer than two.

We run one at a time, then compare ET's and RT's. What fun

 

[none]

Jim,

1: All the teams know the other team’s time routine. For instance if I am 100 to 110 seconds from start to stage, and you are 120 to 130 then you start your car 20 seconds before I do. Everytime. If I’m racing a guy that is quick, say 80 t0 90 seconds then I start first. If there are four of us the slowest guy starts first and the fastest last the other two in the middle. Once we all get prestaged one guy goes in and the other three have 7 seconds, the very same seven seconds as if two cars are staging. No extra time at all. 110 seconds is 110 seconds it makes no difference what is going on in the next lane or if there are 48 lanes. If I’m staging in my time slot, then I’m good and the car has no idea how many other cars are running beside it.

I talked to Tommy DeLago Friday night, did you? The engine broke a valve spring. He had it in his pocket and showed it to me. Knowing that I have spent time on the Spintron and know a little about valve springs. His concern was, is this an isolated failure or maybe a bad batch. It had NOTHING to do with how many cars were running; it would have done the same thing if he had been on a single run testing. The part failed, plain and simple.

2: The issue with the Greek also had nothing to do with four wide. For one thing there were only 3 cars in that set. In this case the car didn’t start and the crew was rushing to get it fired up. Just like they would have if they were only running one guy. You don’t want to hold him up, and if you don’t get it lit and up there you lose the run. If they had any pressure it was because it was Q-4 and they weren’t in. A mistake was made. I’m just glad that Ed wasn’t seriously hurt. But do you think they did something different because two other cars were doing burnouts that they wouldn’t have done if there was just one?

In all my years around this sport as a crew member I never paid any attention to what was happening in the other lane. When it’s time for my car to run I do my deal on my car. When we are ready to stage then we look over to make sure they are ready as well. There have been times when we did the burnout and backed up only to be told we had a single because we didn’t even notice the other guy couldn’t fire. All the crew guys I know are focused on their car, not the other one, or three.

Oh, and you’re basing your case on the fact that John Force said he was confused? That might be the funniest thing I read all week.


3 How many safety trucks did you count? They had more than double what they have at a two lane race. Each pair of lanes had full coverage. They even had a quad assigned to each lane for pushing the cars off the top. Did you see an incident that looked like the response time from the Safari was to long? The left side guys were watching their lanes and rolling at the first sign of trouble and the right side guys were doing to same. Just like they do at every race.

Alan

P.S. I HATE that I misspelled Hagan. I really should know better. Sorry Matt.

 

[my friends call me Zappy]

Alan,

1. It takes longer to stage 4 cars, PERIOD!:

2. Mass confusion at the line during Start Up and Staging:

3. General Safety.
Regards

(1)The staging is completely in the hands of the drivers, the last to pre-stage controls how long it takes.

(2) You move in to pre-stage beam, then a few more inches to light stage beam, PERIOD. No more confusion than 2 cars.

(3) At the 4-wide there are TWO (2) safety safari crews. So in fact it's even SAFER.

 

[Bross Hawg]

The only time running longer really messes with the tune up is (A) the car runs so long it runs out of fuel on the top end...boom! and (B) if the driver gets hung out with the pump fully on and the clutch engaged and building heat. Matt's engine hung an intake valve and it had NOTHING to do with how long he sat on the starting line or being confused. As was stated with the Greek's accident, a crew member forgot to put the grounding wires back on the coils after they could not get the car to start. When the went to clear the motor, the throttle blades were opened and as soon as the starter engaged, the motor caught and the car lurched forward. Accidents happen, and it PROBABLY would have been the same result at a normal 2 lane race. Having said all this, I am a drag racing purist and I personally do not care for 4 wide racing (fine as exhibition), nor do I care for 1000' racing. Just my opinions and they don't mean anything to anybody but me.

 

[Jimbo]

Allan,

Thank you for posting some information that actually had value.

As for my opinion on 4 wide, it is bad for the sport. It is bad for the sponsors and it is not Drag Racing and NEVER will be no matter how much NHRA or Mr. Smith try to shove it down our throats.

As far as part failure, do they know the actual root cause of the part failing, I doubt it. They know a part failed not why it failed and Mr DeLago stated so on TV. Could be a bad batch, could be they are exceeding the limits of the material or design. It also could be that the engine overheated causing the tolerances to tighten pass the maximum because it was too hot at the start or any of 100 reasons. My reason is just as viable as any of the others.

As far as my statements I stand by them. I did not claim it was the true cause, I stated it was a possible cause. Nothing you or anyone else says without hard data to back it up can change that. Until there is some REAL data on how 4 wide is as safe as 2 wide I will continue to feel as such and I am not alone. With 2 times the Parts 2 times the set ups and 2 times the possibilities of Human error there is simply more of a chance for catastrophic failure.

I will end with this:

I offered some creditable possibilities to why there has been the level of carnage and issues at the 4 wide NHRA races base on the science of probability not on an opinion and unproven theories.

Good Day...

 

[none]

Jim,

I am not arguing with your opinion. You are welcome to it. But as far as why the part failed, the car was not running an excessive amount of time outside of the "window" that Tommy runs it in. So that would seem to invalidate your theory that the failure was caused by the four wide. Tommy had put the broken spring under a microscope, and was planning to send it back to the manufacturer for analysis. I have no idea if that has been done yet or what the outcome was, but I will ask him when I see him in Houston. If nobody ever blew up at a two lane event then I think you would have a more valid argument, but the fact is, we do see body shredding explosions a few times a year even at two wide.

At a "Regular" two lane event the number of runs made by a nitro burning car on Sunday is 60. 30 in TF and 30 in FC. At the four wide there are 56 runs made, that would lead me to believe that the chances of having an issue would be slightly less at this event. The number of qualifying runs is the same, four by each car. I'm running my car in my lane, no matter how many other cars are running at the same time.

Alan

 

[Shaggy]

With 2 times the Parts 2 times the set ups and 2 times the possibilities of Human error there is simply more of a chance for catastrophic failure.

How is there any more chance for error with 4 wide than 2 wide when it comes to parts failures, when the exact same amount of passes are being made? That means the exact same amount of chance for catastrophic failure due to parts and setups...

Explain that to me please...

 

[z28]

I think I get it, you don't care for the four wide. But please explain what it had to do with Hagen blowing up or the issue that the Greek had.............


Oh that's right it had NOTHING AT ALL to do with four wide.


Alan

don't know how Greek's crew would feel but I think them trying to hurry up to keep up with 3 other cars had something to do with it. The routine got out of sinc. As for Hagen. It's a Charlotte tradition for him. Like old JF said: If you don't win blow it up and get your air time.

 

[rckymtn3]

and on a lighter note: capt. snarky reporting

espn annouces the launch of espn4

espn4 will dedicate its programming to 4-wide drag racing (because it's what the fans really want)

espn4 will bring back Marty Reid, teamed with Paul Page and Bob Jenkins, Brent Musburger will be the technical announcer. Look for more about this powerhouse 4-some (get it? we tied it in to the 4-wide nationals?)

espn4 plans to dedicate much of it's on-air time to repeating how "cool" 4-wide is, who's tweeting who and the vapid discourse transpiring #whocares

To fill-in the down times between tweets, they will keep the viewer updated on who got engaged, who got married, who had a baby, who went where for vacation, and other related events to the 4-wide nationals....at some point, they even intend to show some cars going down track, or watching the crews maintaining the vehicles.

those who want to continue enjoying the oooooold form of drag racing are welcome to watch espn3, where Mike Dunn will be grinnin' like a jackass eatin' cactus because it's all his show....he'll talk when something is important or informational, and otherwise, you'll get to watch all the on track and pit action....

-capt. snarky

 

[Jimbo]

Jim,

I am not arguing with your opinion. You are welcome to it. But as far as why the part failed, the car was not running an excessive amount of time outside of the "window" that Tommy runs it in. So that would seem to invalidate your theory that the failure was caused by the four wide. Tommy had put the broken spring under a microscope, and was planning to send it back to the manufacturer for analysis. I have no idea if that has been done yet or what the outcome was, but I will ask him when I see him in Houston. If nobody ever blew up at a two lane event then I think you would have a more valid argument, but the fact is, we do see body shredding explosions a few times a year even at two wide.

At a "Regular" two lane event the number of runs made by a nitro burning car on Sunday is 60. 30 in TF and 30 in FC. At the four wide there are 56 runs made, that would lead me to believe that the chances of having an issue would be slightly less at this event. The number of qualifying runs is the same, four by each car. I'm running my car in my lane, no matter how many other cars are running at the same time.

Alan

Alan,

And that may be correct. I am glad that we can agree to disagree. I look forward to your report on what they find.

BTW I was there for the 32 Funny Cars and Dragster Fields with twice that qualifying for those positions in my past. While those days are long gone, is it possible we will see fields reduced to 8 cars in the future for a NHRA race? I hope not.

Professional Drag Racing is in trouble.
How do you keep sponsorship by reducing the amount of runs (sponsor exposure)?
How will smaller teams survive?

NHRA needs be Pro Active and find solutions to better expose the sponsors not reduce their exposure.

As far as 4 wide, maybe it will increase the fan base for NHRA. I hope so. But I do not think it is the solution to the problem. Simply a reactive knee jerk to it.

NHRA needs to be more Pro Active, remember it is a non profit, remember the sportsman racers, the smaller Pro Teams and do all it can to make sure the NEXT generations wants to be involved.
Here is one possible solution:
In My Humble Opinion NHRA should offer youth tickets at $10 for any seat any day when accompanied by an adult and driving age kids on there own should be half the current prices. By taking a Pro Active approach to the fan base issue, the NHRA would insure more life long fans of the sport. The money lost from the ticket sales today would be returned 10 fold in a life long fan...

My hope is that Drag Racing and the NHRA are around a long time after I am gone. It has brought me a lot of Joy in my life and I like nothing better than taking someone to the races that have never been and see the look on their face when they get their first face full of Nitro, I have added several life long fans, I look to adding more as long as I can...

Regards...

 

[none]

Jim,

You think that missing 4 runs a year is ripping the sponsors off? Mother nature causes more missed runs than that. We should sue her!

8 car fields? What the heck does that have to do with this discussion?

And at Charlotte last weekend all kids 13 and under were free! You think we should've charged them 10 bucks? I'll mention that to Christen Byrd

Alan