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Factory Stock Showdown US Nats (1 Viewer)

Sean D, shondoo

Nitro Member
How can FSS or any class have long-term viability when Ford and Mopar are the only ones being penalized? What happened to pro stock (now an entirely GM powered class) is going to happen to FSS. If it wasn't for DSR's two Mopars, and Kevin Skinner's lone Mustang, it would have been an all Camaro show. Keep penalizing those two makes, and FSS will become merely a slower version of pro stock. Why should Ford and Mopar even bother developing their combinations when they will be penalized?
Is that what NHRA wants? Just change the class name to FSC - Factory Stock Camaro.
So what's your plan, Ted? Let 'em eat with only the strong surviving? That would be a great plan, except:

1. Everybody's competing in a heads-up class while all running different platforms of engine design.

2. Whether we like it or not, NHRA drag racing no longer has any real appeal to Detroit.

So what you're left with is a class that will produce a platform with a decided advantage over the others because of #1, but because of #2 there is no desire by the competing makers to spend the money on a better design of their own.

The 50 year old argument using the Pro Stock factoring is history. Like I've said a thousand times before, the Mopars got screwed way back then, but they (NHRA) finally got their head on straight after all the crying and said, "Fine, here are your new parameters. Everybody's gonna run the same shit", and kept it that way for 35 years. And that's through multiple championships by all 3 manufacturers and ZERO rules changes following the championships by Ford and Mopar.

And no, Pro Stock is not a GM-powered class, it's a primarily GM bodied class, whose engines have taken the best designs from all three, with modifications from some of the best minds to create what is arguably the baddest naturally aspirated purpose-built powerplant on the face of the earth.

Sean D
 

TSK

Staff member
Nitro Member
While the Mopars were relatively competitive with the 500 CI package, NHRA, not too long ago, mandated an RPM limit which so adversely affected the Mopars that they quit.
I'm still waiting to hear if any GM cars have ever been penalized for going too quick for the rest of the field.
It's easy to say to quit talking about the pro stock fiasco after 1972. Especially if someone pulls for GM.
NHRA basically rewarded GM mediocrity by punishing the Fords and Mopars back then. And, they're doing it again with FSS. I'd rather not see history repeated.
I do believe that Ford and Mopar might not be as interested in drag racing as GM. Every time either of them develops a winning combination, NHRA slows them. So, what's their incentive for continue supporting drag racing?
 

none

Nitro Member
While the Mopars were relatively competitive with the 500 CI package, NHRA, not too long ago, mandated an RPM limit which so adversely affected the Mopars that they quit.
I'm still waiting to hear if any GM cars have ever been penalized for going too quick for the rest of the field.
It's easy to say to quit talking about the pro stock fiasco after 1972. Especially if someone pulls for GM.
NHRA basically rewarded GM mediocrity by punishing the Fords and Mopars back then. And, they're doing it again with FSS. I'd rather not see history repeated.
I do believe that Ford and Mopar might not be as interested in drag racing as GM. Every time either of them develops a winning combination, NHRA slows them. So, what's their incentive for continue supporting drag racing?

Ted,

After the Summer Nationals (Indy 2) the Chevy COPO was given an overdrive reduction, as was the Ford Cobra Jet. You continue to claim that Ford and MOPAR are being punished so the Chevy can be more competitive, but the facts are that the Chevy was hit at the same time the Ford was.

Alan

From nhraracer.com July 29,

 

Sean D, shondoo

Nitro Member
Yeah, I always love hearing about how the RPM deal ruled out one combination. As if the technical staff that made the decision had the mechanical intellect to KNOW that change would only take the "HEMI" out of the game, rather than the original intent of relieving some valve train costs, (like it actually did, by the way).

Next, you say that "every time either of them develops a winning combination, NHRA slows them down", but I'm still digging in the rule book to try to find what changes were made following Wayne County and Roy Johnson's world championships. I can only assume you're still talking about Pro Stock because the FSS class is still entirely too much in it's infancy to make such a statement. Not to mention, no matter how much anybody likes it or not, YOU HAVE TO FACTOR THIS CLASS. You can't run ANY class featuring different engine platforms heads-up and NOT factor them. You cannot get there from here.

And lastly, like I asked before, what would you do, Ted?

Sean D
 

Pete

Nitro Member
If the potential is equal, then this is true (until the competition is run out due to elevating cost). However, when dealing with different combos in the same class, it gets dicier because it's very possible that one combo has a legitimate advantage over the others that becomes highlighted over time. If you're one of the people running a lesser combo, why work harder when your ceiling is lower? The next step would be to switch to the winning combo, and we all know how much people like it when every car is the same. If you want a variety of cars without spec engines, tweaks need to be made frequently. Yes, it can be punishing some for their hard work, but it's a necessary evil if the class is going to have any long-term viability.
True, I forgot that there is little to no "racer" input on these cars...primarily factory provided parts, so there really is no innovation by the racer
 

none

Nitro Member
2. Whether we like it or not, NHRA drag racing no longer has any real appeal to Detroit.

Sean D
Sean,

If that were true, we would not have a Factory Stock Showdown. The cars that the big three build for this class have no other function.


And not just the Showdown, look at the COPOs, Cobra Jets, and Drag Paks that are strictly there for NHRA competition. Detroit is interested, in a BIG way.

Alan
 

Paul

Staff member
Nitro Member
I would say Dodge and Ford are very interested in NHRA. Look at the $ both of them spend on the NHRA, even with COVID.
 

Sean D, shondoo

Nitro Member
Sean,

If that were true, we would not have a Factory Stock Showdown. The cars that the big three build for this class have no other function.


And not just the Showdown, look at the COPOs, Cobra Jets, and Drag Paks that are strictly there for NHRA competition. Detroit is interested, in a BIG way.

Alan
Apparently not interested in a big enough way, otherwise they (Ford) wouldn't have essentially supported the best teams in their camp's boycott of the biggest race of the year......

Like I said before, there's simply no way to run this class without factoring; NO WAY. But because of that, we already have teams pissing and moaning because their respective advantages have been reigned in for the sake of competition. On the flip-side of that, if you put in a minimum weight, cubic inch max and essentially spec superchargers, you start right back down the road Pro Stock started their 40-year journey with. I'm not sure Detroit would be any more excited about that than the teams are now.

You're always saying you enjoy discussions rather than arguments, so I'm curious where you're at with the two points I made above. To factor or not to factor. I like the class as it is now, no matter which design proves itself superior and steps to the front. I still say you have to factor them to keep the competition close, but I also agree that the other teams need to work harder to catch up and not rely on that factoring. But maybe Detroit (in this case GM and MOPAR) needs to work harder as well in the form of a better design of their own to compete with what has obviously been proven a superior platform, at least for the time being, and who knows, maybe that is actually happening. But THAT is what I would call being interested in a big way.

Sean D
 

none

Nitro Member
Sean

I don't know what Ford's official position was except that I would think they would support the decision of their teams. Ford also chose Indy as the place to publicly debut the E-Cobra Jet, as well as having a substantial footprint n the midway so I believe they see plenty of value in NHRA.

I essentially agree with what you are saying. I was told, and I'm not saying that it is
gospel, that the Skillmans opted to sit out in protest and that Holbrook did the same in support of his customer. And because he didn't want to take a single for the Indy 2 win. If someone has better information, please share.

Drew Skillman told me that everytime there is a rule change it costs the team about $10,000. because you don't just change the pulley and go. You change the pulley and go testing, different converters, transmissions, rear gears, and tune up to try and
maximize your performance, with less horsepower.

I (and many others) am eagerly awaiting the arrival of the new Drag Pak. MOPAR certainly wouldn't be bringing out something they thought was worse. So what will that add to the mix?

With the completely different engine platform for the Cobra Jet I'm just glad that I am not the one trying to keep everything even. And from time to time adjustments will certainly have to be made.

One other topic for consideration is that the cars are certified to 7.50, and I believe that Holbrook has run 7.60 under NMCA rules. That is getting dangerously close to outrunning your certification. And I don't know what would have to be done (or if it's even possible) to certify them faster, without it turning into a Pro Stock Chassis.

Ned Walliser said in his Comp+ interview that they want to stay in the 7.9-8.0 range, To me that sounds reasonable. And to be honest, I don't know if I would want to go 190 MPH on a very small tire and a 3600 lb. car.

Alan
 

Mike

Nitro Member
It seems NHRA has created a problem that has cognitive dissonance built in:

(OIL) Let's have a factory-supported class with the 3 manufacturers actively involved to improve their product, and
(WATER) Let's limit to 7.9.

Oil and water don't mix well. In my little head, it seems NHRA wants GM, Ford, and Mopar to offer a product that logic dictates would have some improvements year to year (ie- Research $ spent) yet if the improvements are too much, those will become negated by NHRA (resulting in even more $ spent). Result- decline in racer participation as frustration and expenses mount up.

This sounds like a poorly thought out concept. In a couple years, if NHRA doesn't make a common sense evaluation of what they want the class to be, it will quietly go the way of Pro Stock trucks.
 

Sean D, shondoo

Nitro Member
Very good points about making the E-Cobra Jet debut with regards to them still be interested in our sport. I just can't believe that they as an organization would support a boycott at that big of a race where, even with the latest restrictions they would've likely still stole the show.

While I get the point Skillman makes in regards to money spent to deal with rule changes, I still find myself where I do when all the other classes talk about the money that would have to be spent if changes were made to their classes, whether that be Pro Stock or either of the fuel classes. These teams flog on their shit all the time anyway, spending ridiculous amounts of money in the process, and with only so much time in a day, you're either gonna spend your money developing/flogging the existing combination/platform in search of those elusive hundredths or thousandths, or spend that time and money flogging the new combination. Capacity is capacity and no matter where you're putting your efforts, if you're a professional level racer, it's all expensive.

I hadn't even given the chassis certification a thought until you mentioned it, and that's a no-brainer. For that matter, I thought I saw where Holbrook or somebody else actually went a .56 somewhere, which is even scarier yet.

Sean D
 
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