WE don't need no stinkin traction control/fuel injection or any other changes in P/S. If you want remote control cars,go to the slot car track. That's what racing is all about,tuning and if you take that out,might as well make them cookie cutter cars that who ever has the best RT wins.Now,I feel much better.
Nitromater
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Controversial Teardown
- Thread starter Bobby Bennett
- Start date
Rajunz
Nitro Member
I agree 1000% Mike. Electronics are a huge turn off to spectators watching the Super Classes, I wish they would all go back to no electronics and make them race purely on tuning and driving, then people would build cars that actually ran closer to the class index, (and fans would enjoy watching them more)......................not to mention, an occasional Peddle Fests in the fuel classes adds alot to the excitement of eliminations.
Sean D, shondoo
Nitro Member
I tend to agree with you and Mike, Lance...............but only as it pertains to Pro Stock. Pro Stock doesn't have near the amount of aborted passes the fuel classes do and thus, doesn't need it.
That being said, I've been around the sport my entire life, and quite frankly, I would welcome TC technology to the fuel classes. Back in the day it wasn't that big of a deal, but the cars have become so powerful these days and it seems like someone is always blowing the tires off. I think the quality of the entire show, especially qualifying, would benefit greatly from the increased amount of side-by-side fuel passes that would likely happen, and who knows, TC may finally show all of us who actually makes the most horsepower..................
Sean D
That being said, I've been around the sport my entire life, and quite frankly, I would welcome TC technology to the fuel classes. Back in the day it wasn't that big of a deal, but the cars have become so powerful these days and it seems like someone is always blowing the tires off. I think the quality of the entire show, especially qualifying, would benefit greatly from the increased amount of side-by-side fuel passes that would likely happen, and who knows, TC may finally show all of us who actually makes the most horsepower..................
Sean D
Paul
Nitro Member
Nah, it would just show us who has the best software programmers, do we really want to turn top fuel into a "battle of the nerds"?
Paul T.
Bill
Nitro Member
I don't think that simply keeping a car from spinning the wheels uncontrollably is going to turn Fuel racing into ANYTHING but a drag race that shows who is the best tuner, makes the most horsepower, designs a car with the best aeordynamics, implements the most effective fuel curve, and can make the engine live at 8,000 horsepower for 4 seconds.
Traction control isn't "everything"...
Traction control isn't "everything"...
scubasteve
Nitro Member
like alan said it wasnt a big a deal ,one of aj's crew usually comes and hangouts with us after racing is done for the day at least once during race week,,,, wasnt a big deal @ least not to the mopar team
KJ said the same thing,no big deal.
clwill
Nitro Member
Treeshaker
Nitro Member
Racers are quick studies, if they see how you are testing for something, they will find a way to get around your testing methods.
Traction control is very useful in all classes, especially pro stock and pro mod. But it makes the racing boring, and I believe that is why ADRL is looking to do away with it.
I remember a roundy-round series with the "electronic" auto makers involved where they could/did control all functions of the car as it was running from the infield. Things like throttle response, shocks, spring rates, braking bias, etc.. The factory that invested the most became the best, the competition fell by the wayside, spectators became scarce, the series is no longer. There was nothing unexpected that was ever going to happen.
The control box on a fuel car is just like a printed circuit board. It is as foreign to some as tuning by a computer would be for others.
And lastly, TC has been around since day one in drag racing. It started with the left foot on the clutch pedal for the best drivers, moved to the brake lever when centrifical clutches came on board, and several methods since hooked up to either/all the brakes, timing, "dumb" clutch controllers. The methods that are used to keep these items from being detected are facinating. Most crewmembers do not even know they are on their cars, what to look for and how they function.
Traction control is very useful in all classes, especially pro stock and pro mod. But it makes the racing boring, and I believe that is why ADRL is looking to do away with it.
I remember a roundy-round series with the "electronic" auto makers involved where they could/did control all functions of the car as it was running from the infield. Things like throttle response, shocks, spring rates, braking bias, etc.. The factory that invested the most became the best, the competition fell by the wayside, spectators became scarce, the series is no longer. There was nothing unexpected that was ever going to happen.
The control box on a fuel car is just like a printed circuit board. It is as foreign to some as tuning by a computer would be for others.
And lastly, TC has been around since day one in drag racing. It started with the left foot on the clutch pedal for the best drivers, moved to the brake lever when centrifical clutches came on board, and several methods since hooked up to either/all the brakes, timing, "dumb" clutch controllers. The methods that are used to keep these items from being detected are facinating. Most crewmembers do not even know they are on their cars, what to look for and how they function.
Going back to the start of the thread, I completely agree with Mike when he says that someone should have been able to stay with the car during the inspection. However, I do think NHRA did the right thing by inspecting all chase cars, but I also agree that all ten should have been tested at the same time and the crew chief and driver/owner should have been present during the entire process. I do not think any member of the team should be involved in any aspect of the the physical inspection process, that means staying away from the car and not touching a thing.
That being said, I understand Mike's position, I know personally I do not want anyone touching anything on the racecar let alone messing with anything electrical. Anyone who has chased a miss in one of these cars will tell you it is one of the most frustrating and time consuming tasks that is most often not fixed the first time around. But the fact is we are professionals getting paid to race, NHRA makes the rules and its our job to follow them and their job to ensure everyone is on a level playing field. In my opinion, I would much rather be working on the racecar then sitting behind a desk any day of the week, if that means pulling some long hours at the track then so be it. Hopefully with a little luck we might be having to worry about it next year.
One of the best parts about Pro Stock is the fact that you cant just have the most power, or the best r/t, or be making the best runs - you need everything and everyone to work together to win. Traction Control takes a large part of the human factor out of tuning a pro stock car, therefore I think it is a horrible idea. Pro Stock is the most competitive of all the professional categories, the races are consistently decided by thousandths of a second, how would traction control make it any better? Now I may be in the minority in my opinion, I just think the challenge makes it all that much sweeter when it all comes together. I will admit that I have never had any experience with traction control in a pro stock car so I could be way off on the effects it has. What do you think Toby, you know exactly what it will and wont do - how much of the skill does it take out of tuning one of these cars?
Jon Yates
That being said, I understand Mike's position, I know personally I do not want anyone touching anything on the racecar let alone messing with anything electrical. Anyone who has chased a miss in one of these cars will tell you it is one of the most frustrating and time consuming tasks that is most often not fixed the first time around. But the fact is we are professionals getting paid to race, NHRA makes the rules and its our job to follow them and their job to ensure everyone is on a level playing field. In my opinion, I would much rather be working on the racecar then sitting behind a desk any day of the week, if that means pulling some long hours at the track then so be it. Hopefully with a little luck we might be having to worry about it next year.
One of the best parts about Pro Stock is the fact that you cant just have the most power, or the best r/t, or be making the best runs - you need everything and everyone to work together to win. Traction Control takes a large part of the human factor out of tuning a pro stock car, therefore I think it is a horrible idea. Pro Stock is the most competitive of all the professional categories, the races are consistently decided by thousandths of a second, how would traction control make it any better? Now I may be in the minority in my opinion, I just think the challenge makes it all that much sweeter when it all comes together. I will admit that I have never had any experience with traction control in a pro stock car so I could be way off on the effects it has. What do you think Toby, you know exactly what it will and wont do - how much of the skill does it take out of tuning one of these cars?
Jon Yates
Just like those who think fuel injection would be an easy change, I think those in favor of traction control don't realize there's a lot more than meets the eye.
A basic system would be cheap in Pro Stock terms, well under $1000. But that would only be the start. Consider that there is not a street car alive that is quicker with traction control on - you need a certain amount of wheelspin for the most effective acceleration.
The programming (and brains to do so) in modifying the maps to include changing weather, horsepower, traction, and individual tires would quickly start to look like a NASA Shuttle budget.
Those of you who screamed at the Summit cars' then-current tech shock package would quickly go hoarse if we ever allowed traction control or injection.
Just to stir the pot a bit, I'd bet that tens of thousands of dollars could be spent without even matching the efficiency that a good clutch program/tuner can presently provide. Just my opinion.
Paul
Nitro Member
I agree 100% with your comments Dan.
It would be fun project to work on though, its separated into 2 parts, both of which are challenging and could consume $ like you wouldn't believe, and there would allways be improvements that could be made with additional development and effort.
When you are trying to control a complex system the first part of the effort is to develop a highly accurate model of that system. In the case of the drag car that would be an overall model of how the car accelerates and would require accurate submodels of all its key components. There better your model is, the more successfully you will be able to control it.
Just the tires alone are a pretty complex subsystem, you would need a model for how they react to torque and load under a wide variety of tire and track temperatures and conditions, including the axle torquing over from load. Then throw in developing a model for both how they react when they lose traction and for how tire shake occurs and exactly what happens in that situation.
Same kind of accurate models for the clutch, fuel system and engine are required, along with what happens during gear shifts.
So having all those models at your disposal (after spending probably at least a couple mil if you really wanted to do it right) now you have the second task of designing and implementing a control system to make use of the models to get the car to meet your performance goals.
This is a whole separate area of expertise that is complex and highly developed, with gains to be had by experimenting and optimizing several of the different approaches that potentially could be used.
I agree with Dan's opinion that just getting the point where you could match a current crew chief would take a lot of effort, but once you were there, additional development could take you well past that point, but at a serious cost.
Fun to think about, but not good for drag racing right now, and maybe never.
Paul T.
Bill
Nitro Member
Dan,
Your comment, "you need a certain amount of wheelspin for the most effective acceleration." probably holds true for a Pro Stock car (and I realize we were talking about Pro Stockers), but my own 11-second bracket car with an automatic transmission ALWAYS runs quicker if it is glued to the track with zero wheelspin. Maybe the torque converter makes the difference.
Traction control may NOT be a good idea for Pro Stock right now, but I think its time has come in the Fuel category cars.
So many T/F and F/C races are aborted due to excessive wheelspin... and like I said in another post, a pedaling contest is a very poor substitute for close racing, IMHO.
Thanks for your comments on traction control as it applied to P/S. You made a lot of good points!
Bill
Your comment, "you need a certain amount of wheelspin for the most effective acceleration." probably holds true for a Pro Stock car (and I realize we were talking about Pro Stockers), but my own 11-second bracket car with an automatic transmission ALWAYS runs quicker if it is glued to the track with zero wheelspin. Maybe the torque converter makes the difference.
Traction control may NOT be a good idea for Pro Stock right now, but I think its time has come in the Fuel category cars.
So many T/F and F/C races are aborted due to excessive wheelspin... and like I said in another post, a pedaling contest is a very poor substitute for close racing, IMHO.
Thanks for your comments on traction control as it applied to P/S. You made a lot of good points!
Bill
haagar
Nitro Member
Do you have links to any systems that are under $1000?
That is an honest question and I am not trying to say they aren't out there, but the systems I am familiar with from the oval track racing all start at around $2000 for the drag race versions (still not really expensive in prostock terms).
I assume we can rule out any systems that need a front wheel sensor and IIRC correctly there are rules making a fifth wheel with a sensor illegal. I would also think we can rule out the GPS systems because I am not sure they could react fast enough for a pro stock car even though they list drag racing as a use on their page.
What if they mandated a spec box in order to cut the cost issue out? I wouldn't really be in favor of that since I like it when people are able to innovate and you would also then have the issue of trying to police the box.
BrettV
Nitro Member
We use GPS systems in our sounding rockets (I work for NASA in the scientific sounding rocket program - the one's responsible for the recent rocket that was mistaken for a UFO
). The rockets typically accelerate 12-20 g's and the GPS maintains lock. Of course not just any GPS unit will work.The GPS your rockets have access too is not the same GPS system as the public gets to use. Mainly so the public can't do functions like you are with GPS, ie guiding rockets etc. The 'public' GPS updates around 20 times a second. Thats not going to work in a drag car.
Our traction control for ADRL cars is $4500. Pretty cheap relative to other parts on the car. We sell alot of them too. Currently teams use our TC to activate a retard stage of their ignition system. By no means is it an elaborate system controlling several functions of the car like the F-1 teams used to do. I stress to every customer that its not going to make a perfect pass any faster nor will it allow them to leave the line at 10000rpm with 50 psi of boost. If a team is using it to activate a 4 degree retard, they in essence have a 4 degree of timing window to be aggressive. If the track doesn't hold their tune-up, the TC activates and if they aren't over 4 degrees over center the TC will fix their problem. However if the guy in the other lane is making a nice pass and the TC never activates..all things being equal...he will be the quicker car. So it still is a crew chief race to go fast and not have the TC activate.
Toby Graham
DragTraction.Com
Our traction control for ADRL cars is $4500. Pretty cheap relative to other parts on the car. We sell alot of them too. Currently teams use our TC to activate a retard stage of their ignition system. By no means is it an elaborate system controlling several functions of the car like the F-1 teams used to do. I stress to every customer that its not going to make a perfect pass any faster nor will it allow them to leave the line at 10000rpm with 50 psi of boost. If a team is using it to activate a 4 degree retard, they in essence have a 4 degree of timing window to be aggressive. If the track doesn't hold their tune-up, the TC activates and if they aren't over 4 degrees over center the TC will fix their problem. However if the guy in the other lane is making a nice pass and the TC never activates..all things being equal...he will be the quicker car. So it still is a crew chief race to go fast and not have the TC activate.
Toby Graham
DragTraction.Com
We use GPS systems in our sounding rockets (I work for NASA in the scientific sounding rocket program - the one's responsible for the recent rocket that was mistaken for a UFO
gerrymack
Nitro Member
I agree that no one enjoys a runaway contest, but a side-by-side pedaling smoke fest is just as entertaining, if not more, than a side-by-side four second run IMHO as a fan of the sport Pedregon v Force Pedal Fest
