Raynor and Herbert mono strut car for sale? (1 Viewer)

[The Little Lizard]

If you happen to stumble on to this in your travels. It has come to my attention that a party asserts they have the Raynor and Herbert Don Long mono strut car for sale from the early 1970's. Here is the history of that car I'll let you figure out the rest for yourself. The mono strut car was also the Performance World car after they took the mono stut type wing off the back of it. Jim and Chris Raynor sold it to John Stewarts father and John drove the car. They ran it a few times and beat Don Garlits two out of three at Sacramento match racing. After that they ran it off the track at Sacramento as the throttle stuck on it ( I was their when it happened, and the incident to my strong recollection was reported in local print media). The car was a complete total front and back. Thus, it is my belief based on over thirty year old recollections no party has the Raynor and Herbert mono car. However, their was a twin car to that one that I believe may have survived to some extent and that car was sold to and run by Don Moody. No matter what I would have Don Long look at it, I guess anything is posible. Wouldn't be suprised if they dragged the thing to the reunion since Don Long will be an honoree, and then have him throw some verbal Holy water on it?

Caveat: It was not an actual true Mono strut rod wing, as the dorsal wing was mounted to the chassis, and support by a lateral strut rods on each side. The Don Moody Don Long twin car had the same feature.

 

[big al]

The car that John Stewart crash a sac was the old Peterson & Fitz car , he then had John Shoemaker build him a new car and crash it at Pomona the next year . We had the Raynor and Herbert car there that day racing so it was not crashed ,it was sold to some guys from socal and raced in pro comp . So this could be the car the id was checked so who knows ,I'm sure the car has been changed a lot to keep up with rules ,cage,backhalf

 

[The Little Lizard]

So this could be the car the id was checked so who knows ,I'm sure the car has been changed a lot to keep up with rules ,cage,backhalf

Originally posted by Mark Clayton

No matter what I would have Don Long look at it, I guess anything is posible. Wouldn't be suprised if they dragged the thing to the reunion since Don Long will be an honoree, and then have him throw some verbal Holy water on it?

Since it has been so long since Jim Herbert and Chris Raynor ran the car, and Don Long at least since the last time I talked to him a half dozen years ago still had some records/order forn/bill of sale for the car I would consult with him. I know from my conversation with Don, the Garrison, Raynor and Herbert car order form/Bill had the purchaser name on it as "Chris Raynor". I wouldn't be surpirsed if the Raynor and Herbert documents of Don's reflected the same. As Allen brang up recollections may be faded after over 35 years, even those of Chris Raynor and myself. It would be my guidence also average and reasonable to talk to Don Long and have him look at the car for the sake of doing some due dilegence on the origin of the car (especially since the Don Moody Car was a twin to it).

Caveat: If it is ever verifed that the car of interest is the Raynor and Herbert Car, it will NOT have the dorsal Wing with it!!!!! It was taken of the car when it was converted to a mono wing configuration, and kept as a remeberence piece by Jim Herbert, and for the duration of my time at Jim Herbert's Performance World stored in the upstairs shipping box storage area!!!!! It was their well after the Raynor and Herbert car left the ownership of its operator

 

[big al]

There was also a car owned by a guy surname of Winters that lived in sac ,was not mono wing but was of the same build as the Moody car and Herbert car ,never saw it race but was a beautiful car . Do you know where Donna lives lost track of her

 

[The Little Lizard]

Allen, I will follow up later today on this thread with a Jim Herbert's Performance World Alumni, or psuedo/quasi-Alumi list to my recollection/current knowledge of their status and where abouts.

On the subject of the Raynor and Herbert car, and it potential restoration and verification I would do the following:

1. Have Don Long verify to the best of his knowledge and Records that this is in fact the Raynor and Herbert Don Long chassised car.

2. If verification can obtained, it should be restored by Bruce Dyda exclusively (if Don Longs Shop is still next to his), why:

a. Because Don Long who originally built the car and his shop may still be next to Dyda's literally in the city of Gardena, California. ( I know Don sold his jig and assembly line fixtures to BME (Bill Miller) but I think Don is still there.

b. If Don Long is still in his Gardena location, and since this is where I believe the car was originally built it should go home for its restoration.

c. Since Don may still be next to Bruce he can consult and oversee the restoration to ensure it is as accurate as possible, and of course as the original builder this lends more credability and authenticity to the rebuild/restoration.

d. After the rebuild/restoration is complete Don could provide written formal authenicity of the car in addition to certification of the authenticity of the restoration proccess.

3. Bruce Dyda is an excellent craftsman and has done wonderful, and successfull restorations of many famous cars, i.e. T.V. Tommy's Wagonmaster, Show Boat, Walt Stevens "The Poacher", Blood, Sweat, and Nitro, Don Ewald, and many, many more....

If the Raynor and Herbert Don Long chassised car is restored it needs to be done correctly with dignity and respect, or not at all! Thus, which begs the real questions:

a. If the car is restored will it be in the innovative Raynor and Herbert configuration with innovative quesdo-mono strut dorsal wing?, or

b. The more competitively successful Raynor and Herbert "Performance World" configuration with single element wing?, or

c. Will a twin car be made of the restoration of both configurations?

 

[The Little Lizard]

It is my understanding from another message board that Allen has rebuffed me, in fact he has not (he's cool I have no issues with him). Addtionally, it is falsely reported that the Raynor and Herbert psuedo mono wing car and the Raynor and Herbert "Performance World" Car are two different cars. This in fact is not true, the two cars were the same car/chassis. The quasi-mono wing was taken off the the raynor and herbert (their could be a whole thread on that) and replaced with the single element wing!!!! The car was then repainted when Jim Herbert opened up his Speed Shop "Jim Herbert's Performance World", and campaigned with the "Perfromance World" log on the side of the car in support of Jim's Speed Shop. Thus

The Raynor and Herbert car, and the Raynor and Herbert Performance World car are in fact the same car.

Oh, my involvement with Jim Herbert seems to be contested by some. Here is the facts, it is my belief of people currently around. I Mark Clayton during the time of 9/75-4/78 spent more time personally with Jim Herbert, period. I was his personal assistant Monday through Friday, Saturday, and a number of race events. If anyone can present to me someone during the time of 9/75-4/78 who spent more time with Jim Herbert, please present them. To validate my involvement is my father who is sitting next to me (now) and was a Chief Counsel for the State of California Department of Legal Services and Real Estate Services during this time and was a Counsel for the state for almost 4 decades, and use to pick me up from working for Jim (and was a personal legal advisor to him as well). Additinally, Robert Hights Uncle who encouraged him to get involved with Racing worked with and for my father at the time I worked for Jim Herbert. Their is another story their, and I should share that. It is my position anyone who contests any of the above account of my involvement with Jim Herbert as described in this post (9-25-10@03:11 PM) is a Liar.

 

[The Little Lizard]

*****As a additional note********

After reviewing my papers and a moment ago legal review. I in fact have a contract signing over to me the right to use the "Raynor & Herbert" name and logo as long as I want to use it. We will be monitoring any attempt by any other party that may attempt to use the name or logo.

 

[The Little Lizard]

Jim Herbert’s Performance World Alumni or quasi-pseudo alumni

1. Jim Herbert-Northern California Drag racing Legend/speed shop owner/ Founding father of the Nostalgia movement-R.I.P

2. Monty-Secretary Bookkeeper-R.I.P

3. Gordon Bishop (Father of Legendary Machinist Bill Bishop) –sometimes driver R.I.P

4. Legendary Machinist Bill Bishop, unsure last I heard in So Cal doing Performance Boat motors-may not still be with us.**

5. Bernie Marine-Part Manager 75-76 (F/Gas 69 Camaro Z/28), last know whereabouts, Colorado, may not be with use.**

6. Mark Clayton-Warehouse/Shipping manager/Top Fuel Operations-you know I’m here

7. Terry Thomas, Parts Manager 1977-1978 nickname "Big-T", "T", Fair Oaks, California, wife I believe Barabara, last sighting at a barber shop late 1990’s, may not be with us.**

8. John Steele, Performance World Parts Sales-nickname "Stoney", retired manager ERSON Cams late 1990’s, Carson City, Nevada, last know whereabouts Carson City, Nevada, hanging out with ex-Isky cam grinder goes by the name T-Willy, may not be with us.**

9. Michael Birum, I was helping him, he was helping me on my front engine dragster, and I believe he is still around and about three years ago got married and dropped off the scene for a number of reasons.

10. Gary Ormsby-R.I.P (Former NHRA Top Fuel Champion-drag racing legend)

11. Chris Raynor-Legendary Tuner/builder, (Jim Herbert’s long time racing partner, Kansas “John” Wiebe, Donovan Engineering, Larry Minor/Gary Beck, Gary Ormsby, Bill Barney, John Costanza, etc, etc.-R.I.P

12. Gary Grisel-worked a year or so after school, and after Marine Corp. Boot Camp, Gary is still around and active in the community, and may still work at Performance Chevrolet with Rapadis from Murphy’s WWII FED deal. His father Vern, nickname “V.P.” P stands for Percell worked as a lead mechanic at Bob Frink Chevrolet when Gary Ormsby was lead salesmen over their prior to him becoming a Toyota dealer. Mother Elsa worked for Dave Smith at Sacramento Raceway as a secretary and in event promotions for many years, they are very nice folks. Gary’s son Casey drives Nostalgia A/Fuel Car owned by the family and tuned by legendary tuner Jerry Darrien, they recently won the Las Vegas Nostalgia Series event.

13. Brian Crockett, Performance World’s circle burner expert-nickname "Fly'n Brian", or "B.C." also veteran sprint car driver, went on to become outside salesman for Fred Bailey’s Bailey Brothers Performance Center in American Canyon, California, Brian Retired about ten years ago and moved to the Medford, Oregon area. This is where his son Rogers World of Oultlaws car owner resides. His son Roger came to Tognotti’s to have a cup of coffee and work for us a while, and is a very successful Sprint Car Driver, and can be followed on the World of Outlaws and 360 Sprint car circuit, check out these web links (their is a allot of stuff on roger if you google it):

YouTube - Roger Crocket 360 Track Record

Roger Crockett World of Outlaws row 1 A-Main, Car #11

YouTube - 9-1-08 World Of Outlaw A-Main Grays Harbor Raceway

Roger Crockett's Pictures - MySpace Photos

YouTube - Roger Crockett qualifying @ Skagit Speedway 360 Nationals 7/31/09


14. Val-Herbert girlfriend number 1-from what Chris told me she is still around. I have to be honest this was one smok’n hot look’n red head.

15. Connie-Herbert girlfriend number 2- from what Chris told me she is still around. I have to be honest this was one smok’n hot look’n lady and a super sweet personality to boot.

16. Sue-Gary Ormsby’s life long partner, from what Chris told me she is still around. I have to be honest one heck of a good look’n gal and always pleasant when I was around her.

17. George J. Makris (Super Gas), nickname” Jaybird, or Jay” worked weekends to pay off his bill sometimes, former operator of Jays Automotive, and O.K. Radiator. I believe he is still around, last known whereabouts hanging out at M&S Machine with Fred Van Ornem (Super Street) . Last known whereabouts was he was sharing warehouse space with Super Everything (Gas, Comp, Top Sportsman, Top Dragster, etc.) driver William, Bill” Boxold.

**May not be with us is based on chronological age at time of employment at Jim Herbert’s Performance World.

 

[Silly Savage]

And....?

 

[big al]

The mono wing car and the Performance World car were the same car ,there was only one 230 " Don Long car and it was never crashed ,almost at Bakersfield in 74 when the rear end housing broke at 900' mark ,the only thing that kept the wheel on was Don built the car with a brace like the blow back brace on the bell housing and this was the only thing that kept the wheel on the car , we had a tough weekend we just missed the 5 second club we ran a6.000
and kick all the rods out of the new motor ,put the small motor in ran and broke the rear end.
Cheri was Jim's second wife and alot of help for me in the restoration of Woody car , great lady,sweet heart

 

[The Little Lizard]

The mono wing car and the Performance World car were the same car ,there was only one 230 " Don Long car and it was never crashed ,almost at Bakersfield in 74 when the rear end housing broke at 900' mark ,the only thing that kept the wheel on was Don built the car with a brace like the blow back brace on the bell housing and this was the only thing that kept the wheel on the car , we had a tough weekend we just missed the 5 second club we ran a6.000
and kick all the rods out of the new motor ,put the small motor in ran and broke the rear end.
Connie was Jim's first wife
Cheri was Jim's second wife and alot of help for me in the restoration of Woody car , great lady,sweet heart

Yes Allen, Jim did have a first wife and the family resided with her after their divorce, I believe for the most part back in McCloud up by Mt. Shasta until they grew up. We very-very rarely interfaced with them do to divorce, as was the case with Gary Ormsby's family, in the case of junior he resided with his mother, and was of such a -very-very young age at the time it wouldn't be reasonable. Jim subsequently dated after divorce as would be average and reasonable, and I was always impressed by his efforts. He did much later in his life remarry as you so indicated, and I'm aware of that as well as her remarriage after his passing. It is my impression she is a fine individual.

Allen, thanks for confirming my account that the Raynor & Herbert & The Performance World Car are the same. Unfortunatley, other parties on another message board are giving some errouneous historical accounts of the cars history.

 

[unclebob]

Mark and Allen;
The pro comp guys that bought (what I remember) was the second DeLong car. My records are far from perfect, but Sameshima & Hickson from Tustin brought me a Raynor & Herbert car that I sort of remember being blue and white striped, about 1981-83. It had the flat plate looking nose in the Herbert part 2.
I backhalved it for a 3 speed, did cage updates and welded the newly mandated serial number plate on the shoulder hoop, #28-1207.
I have already been called about the history of this # tag from a very interested SoCal racer who said he was going to buy it. I don't know if he did, but may see him at CHRR.
I still talk to Don Long and the Walton part of the tail wing car mentioned was my old Minnesota T/F partner, so I'm pretty up on that wing strut style, and the car I worked on had Don's standard mount.

Hope this might help history, Bob

 

[The Little Lizard]

about 1981-83. It had the flat plate looking nose
Hope this might help history, Bob

As an additional note, their was a 2nd Don Long car that was owned by Chris Raynor that ran under the title, "Garrision, Raynor and Herbert". It is a completely different car than the "Raynor & Herbert"/"Performance World-Raynor Herbert" Car. It was obtained after the sale of the "Raynor & Herbert"/"Performance World-Raynor & Herbert" Car, and delivery was in late 1977. The "Garrision, Raynor and Herbert" car had a flate plate looking nose, however was black and Gold.

 

[big al]

The mono wing / performance world car was 230 " wheel base and the the second car the one built in 1977 was 250" wheel base ,the first car had 2 wings on the front axle and the second had 1 at the nose ,painted like the johnny player spl. F1 car ,the second car also had different locations for the clutch and throttle pedals ,so they could be moved for different drivers

 

[The Little Lizard]

The mono wing / performance world car was 230 " wheel base and the the second car the one built in 1977 was 250" wheel base ,the first car had 2 wings on the front axle and the second had 1 at the nose ,painted like the johnny player spl.

Yep!


I stopped working on the G,R & H car in April of 1978 (last race 1978 MM), however it's my simple recollection of later convserations with the cars owner Chris Raynor that the G,R & H Don Long car was sold in late 1978. I believe based on those discussions during one of my many Saturday morning visits to his home, that it seems the G,R & H went to a SoCal Pro Comp Racer (as did many former Top Fuel RED's in that era).

I have more NEW info, and VIDEO ********SEE PAGE TWO**************

 

[The Little Lizard]

Mark and Allen;
The pro comp guys that bought (what I remember) was the second DeLong car. My records are far from perfect, but Sameshima & Hickson from Tustin brought me a Raynor & Herbert car that I sort of remember being blue and white striped, about 1981-83.

For purposes of car identification, the car being blue with a white strip would be of no value. In that the Raynor & Herbert original car was last in "Performance World" paint scheme at the time of their last possession of it (circa 1976), and the orignal paint scheme of the car had been completely stripped off. The last colors of the Raynor and Herbert cars were black, light blue, and orange. See part 5 at the link provided below:

The Jim Herbert Story - Part Two


Find below a you tube video from 1981 of a Sameshima & Hickson blue and white striped alcohol Dragster which seems to appear to have a single plate up front and its paint looks nothing like anything Raynor and Herbert ever sported:

YouTube - Ken Hickson TA/D at OCIR 1-24-1981

*****I have done addtional review of the above You Tube video titled, "Ken Hickson TA/D at OCIR 1-24-1981" at 200% Zoom at 1:11 into the video it crystal clearly shows the Sameshima & Hickson dragster with a single large nose plate consistant with the Garrison, Raynor & Herbert car, NOT the Raynor and Herbert psuedo mono strut wing Don Long dragster that had 2 wings on the front axle, per the account of Mr. Allen Jaynes, and known historical pictograhpical evidence.**************

Additionally, the 1977 Dong Long Garrison, Raynor, and Herbert car featuring a front plate and sold in late 1978 by its owner Chris Raynor, was only in black and gold pain color during it's possession period. Thus, what ever car that was presented to Bob Meyer if it was indeed a Raynor and Herbert, or Garrison, Raynor and Herbert car seems to have been repainted.

 

[unclebob]

Well, seeing as my memory is cloudy, we may get to find out at CHRR.
I talked to the new owner at Mert's celebration of life last night, and he said he might bring it up there just because Long and I will both be there.
I am now thinking the front axle was the wide bottom and not the "V" shape, meaning the big difference between those two cars. One look will tell.
Of course my recollection of paint means nothing because those guys tried to run the car (I think) with a two speed before they brought it to me.
That video has such good sound, there is no question it's a 3 speed, so it's after I worked on it and confirms 1981.

Bob

 

[The Little Lizard]

That video has such good sound, there is no question it's a 3 speed, so it's after I worked on it and confirms 1981.

Yep, I heard the three speed as well, front wheels on the car in the video are different then the Raynor & Herbert Performance World as well as Garrison, Raynor and Herbert Engine spacing in the back is different as well, probably related to your work back? Also, cage seems different-second hoop , check out this Garrision, Raynor and Herbert picture link:

View All Photos Photo Gallery - Photo 22 of 107 by THE LITTLE LIZARD'S IN THE KNOW 1320 EZINE - MySpace Photos

The new discovery of the Sameshima & Hickson car You tube video seems to present some interesting potential contrasts to the Raynor & Herbert and Garrison, Raynor and Herbert Don Long Cars, as well as illiceting more questions than it provides answers. I guess their may always be some question regarding the current existence of the Raynor and Herbert or Garrsion, Raynor and Herbert Don Long Dragsters.

Bob thanks for volunteering your knowledge on this matter, it has been helpful!

 

[Mike]

Chris Raynor, Bill Bishop and myself were the sole crew from the time the car was picked up at Long's. Originally running a cast iron Chrysler 392, Jim and Chris updated it to the Donovan 417, with OEM heads. About a year later, we updated to a Lenco 2 speed, just prior to the Winternationals. In fact, I spent about 10 days babysitting the car at Don Long's Gardena shop, and spent considerable time with Jerry Ruth and Art Whipple (Mr. Ed F/C). We ran Lions Last Drag Race, OCIR, Ontario, Bakersfield, Fremont and, of course, Sacramento regularly. In my ID, on the left, you can see my Challenger T/A in the background of a Wednesday afternoon test session at Sacto, prior to the race where we beat "The Old Man", but lost to Stewart in the final. The highlight of my time with Jim, Chris and Bill was INDY 1973, and the Tulsa PRA race the week before. We qualified well at both, ran well, but left too early, and too late.

Another highlight was witnessing history. We were the next car to run at the Ontario Supernationals, behind the first side-by-side 5's, a 5.97 run by Mike Snively in Diamond Jim Annin's big block, next to Don Moody's 5.91, in the Cerny & Moody Don Long car as ours (he had already got rid of the mono wing). No one lost the race that evening, as it was qualifying. Moody's 5.91 was he quickest run in NHRA history, till that Nov 1972 night.

Bill Bishop and Chris ran the car very conservatively. Other than Bakersfield, when we hurt the Donovan when we replaced 7 pistons, but not the oil, we never tore up parts. I cannot recall a blower, rear end, transmission, axle, or engine failure in the 2 1/2 years. It was a good thing, as we never had any other parts. If we'd broke something, that was it for the weekend, or evening. We did take a cast iron short block to Indy and Tulsa, but that was pretty much it. We only had the one set of tires for that trip. Interesting, but when Chris and Jim had "everything" in the car, there was not anything left for spares. Once Jim left Tognotti's and opened Performance World, he seemed to have more and better parts.

By that time, I was focused on finishing college, getting married (still married after 40 years) and starting a business.

On a sad note, Connie, one of the ladies mentioned above, was murdered in Rancho Cordova, I believe in 1984, by some whack job who then stole her signature Corvette. Sad.